Presidential Advisor WHO Directly Handled UFO Material- Harald Malmgren- BONUS PRESENTATION
- His handling of mysterious UAP material from the 1962 Bluegill Triple Prime nuclear test, handed to him by Atomic Energy Commission director Lawrence Preston Gise.
- Briefings from CIA’s Richard Bissell, the architect of Area 51, on “otherworld technologies” and historic crash retrievals, including the 1933 Magenta crash in Italy.
- Classified intelligence on antigravity research involving Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown.
- A chilling deathbed confession to his daughter Pippa about UFO crash survivors, including footage of a surviving extraterrestrial from Roswell.
- Malmgren’s belief that JFK’s knowledge of UFOs, rooted in his Naval Intelligence days, and his push for Soviet collaboration on space and denuclearization may have contributed to his assassination.
- His rare mention of the secretive “Majestic” group, an elite circle overseeing the UFO issue, which tracked him from a young age.
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Speaker 1: It's not not for any who's under send the world out.
Speaker 2: The world worse.
Speaker 3: Is it's October of nineteen sixty two, the heart of
Speaker 3: the Cold War.
Speaker 4: Images from an American U two revealed that the Soviet
Speaker 4: Union had secretly begun building missile bases in Cuba, just
Speaker 4: ninety miles off the coast of Florida. Strategic Air Command
Speaker 4: was placed in Defcon two, the only time that's ever
Speaker 4: happened in the history of the United States. Khrushchev and
Speaker 4: Kennedy both had top military strategists pushing them to draw
Speaker 4: first blood.
Speaker 1: We are asking tonight that an emergency meeting of the
Speaker 1: Security Council be convoked without delay.
Speaker 4: Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command of the
Speaker 4: Air Force, wanted to deal a death blow to the Soviets.
Speaker 4: Amidst this tense backdrop, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara called
Speaker 4: one of his top aides, a twenty seven year old
Speaker 4: whiz kid named Harold Malgren, into the situation room.
Speaker 5: Don't tell them, but your things should happen. Ask them
Speaker 5: a lot of question your drivers to slow them down,
Speaker 5: reduce the hint in the room. And here was time
Speaker 5: to reverse something.
Speaker 4: Out miraculously, the hail Mary worked. Harold, the youngest man
Speaker 4: in the situation room, ran circles around one of the
Speaker 4: most aggressive four star generals in American history, and if
Speaker 4: I remember correctly, it kind of wrehtorically back them into
Speaker 4: a corner where you say, what would be your prime target?
Speaker 2: First?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, there's madness. If you're hitting much, there's
Speaker 5: no one to talk to.
Speaker 4: And then that's at that point, right, LeMay storms out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, he he literally signing these papers down. Okay,
Speaker 5: I'm not going. I refused to run with this.
Speaker 4: Malmgram went on to become a top presidential advisor for JFK.
Speaker 4: I'll be ja Nixon and Ford, and the fact that
Speaker 4: he neutralized LeMay and saved the world is the least
Speaker 4: interesting thing I'll be discussing with him. You've been dropping
Speaker 4: bombs on the internet, saying some amazing things.
Speaker 5: Will he knew all about your clothes. Long before he
Speaker 5: became president.
Speaker 4: Harold had been tweeting things that have taken it all
Speaker 4: seriously alongside his credentials and background. Would wholesale overturn your worldview?
Speaker 5: He said, these are things that have come down, so.
Speaker 4: You're looking at like material anomalist material. Yeah, debris. This
Speaker 4: interview changed my life forever and will hopefully do the
Speaker 4: same for you. In it, Harold admits to directly handling
Speaker 4: UFO material that fell out of the plume of a
Speaker 4: Marshall Island's nuclear test.
Speaker 6: This is world history.
Speaker 4: It's the first time anybody of this caliber has ever
Speaker 4: admitted to handling UFO material directly. What did it feel like?
Speaker 4: He discusses getting briefed on other world technologies by Deputy
Speaker 4: Director of Plans for the CIA and chief architect of
Speaker 4: Area fifty one, Richard Bissel. Malmgrim tells me that Bissele
Speaker 4: confirmed to him the existence of the Magenta UFO crash
Speaker 4: of nineteen thirty three in Italy, recently reported on by
Speaker 4: UFO whistleblower David Grush. He did, Richard Bissell mentioned the
Speaker 4: nineteen thirty three magenta question.
Speaker 6: That's amazing.
Speaker 4: If that's not enough, Malmgrim also implies that he was
Speaker 4: being tracked by the Majestic Twelve from a young age.
Speaker 1: Only important birth of talents, not only but all Majessic audience.
Speaker 2: They have sypote world.
Speaker 4: The Majestic Twelve is an elite group of military science
Speaker 4: and government advisors governing the UFO issue that were described
Speaker 4: in document leaks in the eighties and nineties. But this
Speaker 4: is the first time anybody of this caliber has ever
Speaker 4: mentioned that name. You have uncovered collaboration between Nicole and
Speaker 4: Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown. What source did he get it?
Speaker 5: Bron quotes intelligence.
Speaker 4: We get into the Chinese science fiction novel The Three
Speaker 4: Body Problem, which Harold believes may be the best model
Speaker 4: we have for the UFO story. It's not just the
Speaker 4: atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the
Speaker 4: spear as far as tech development, thus the whole Yeah,
Speaker 4: Harold's daughter Pippa would know that she was special assistant
Speaker 4: to President Bush and on his National Economic Council. It's
Speaker 4: now public knowledge through how put Off that George W.
Speaker 4: Bush contemplated UFO disclosure with his national security advisor Stephen Hadley.
Speaker 6: As Pippa relayed to me.
Speaker 4: A lot of these high level disclosure discussions revolved around
Speaker 4: one particular book, a Chinese science fiction novel called The
Speaker 4: Three Body Problem, which became mandatory reading among many high
Speaker 4: level national security advisors in the United States.
Speaker 7: And to fast forward, spending time with my own father, Yes,
Speaker 7: and discovering that he's been involved with this from the
Speaker 7: earliest days.
Speaker 4: Finally, we discussed secret science going on at sensitive Department
Speaker 4: of Energy sites across the country, Alan Dulles, the director
Speaker 4: of the CIA, the Italian mob, secret societies, the JFK assassination,
Speaker 4: and how all of these might relate to UFOs.
Speaker 5: The relationship needs to be uncovered between England's father Hangleton
Speaker 5: and the Knights of baltaon Wow.
Speaker 4: Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part
Speaker 4: in JFK's death?
Speaker 5: Do I think so?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 5: I think it was probably the number one issue.
Speaker 6: In many ways.
Speaker 4: Malmgren was sort of a forest gump of global elite politics.
Speaker 5: We lived for me, found me in the crowd, brought
Speaker 5: me and introduced me into Putin. No I knew enough
Speaker 5: to realize that that was not an accident omitting.
Speaker 4: It became clear to me in the midst of this
Speaker 4: interview that Harold was part of a much deeper intelligence
Speaker 4: network that we barely scratch the surface on.
Speaker 7: You are now part of a network of people. It
Speaker 7: will be known that you've been blessed.
Speaker 4: If I had a choice, I would have spent weeks
Speaker 4: with Harold, going deep on his vast knowledge of UFO's
Speaker 4: deep politics and global power structures. Unfortunately, a day after
Speaker 4: our interview, we had to rush him to the hospital.
Speaker 4: That hospital visit ended up lasting a few weeks, culminating
Speaker 4: in his tragic passion. But when I was back in Austin,
Speaker 4: Harold insisted on speaking to me on the phone.
Speaker 6: To follow up.
Speaker 4: His vitals on the cusp of failure. Just three days
Speaker 4: before his death, he revealed even more to me, things
Speaker 4: that will make you further question your reality.
Speaker 2: If you asked me, did I have a purpose? Yes?
Speaker 4: In this final courageous interview, Harold Malmgren transcends his earthly
Speaker 4: oaths and adheres to a higher godly principle in one
Speaker 4: final act of service to humanity, one that may end
Speaker 4: up being just as consequential as saving the Earth from
Speaker 4: nuclear catastrophe. Without further ado, please welcome this week's American Alchemist.
Speaker 4: May he rest in peace, Presidential advisor and international peacekeeper,
Speaker 4: the honorable Harold Malmgren.
Speaker 2: Maybe interview meet.
Speaker 4: Harold. It's Jesse good Man.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 6: Is the more important question?
Speaker 4: You scared me last week.
Speaker 1: I'm having explain that by I am how I happened.
Speaker 2: To be Oh, I just know that.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm flanked by greatness and and and just honored
Speaker 4: to be here. I'm here with doctor Harold Malgram, who
Speaker 4: was a presidential advisor to for different presidents JFK, LBJ, Nixon,
Speaker 4: and Ford, among various other amazing accolades. You helped stop
Speaker 4: a couple of global crises, if we're going to get
Speaker 4: into that. But I think for the purposes of this conversation,
Speaker 4: you've been dropping bombs on the Internet and really saying
Speaker 4: some amazing things that deal with the nature of reality
Speaker 4: non human intelligence UFOs or as they're commonly referred to
Speaker 4: now UAPs, and inform briefs that you've gotten on the subject.
Speaker 4: And so I couldn't be more excited to be speaking
Speaker 4: with you now about all this. And we also have
Speaker 4: doctor Pipple malm Grim, who is equally amazing, and she
Speaker 4: was a special assistant to George W. Bush on his
Speaker 4: National Economic Council. She's written a few great books. I
Speaker 4: recommend you you all check them out, and she's going
Speaker 4: to be joining us for this conversation as well. So
Speaker 4: I'm honored to be here with both of you guys.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much. For having us.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I'm because I've watched your root. There's several people,
Speaker 5: and you've done an amazing job. The most looking in
Speaker 5: my mind is your interview with Matthew Pines.
Speaker 4: Well, that means so much. Matthew Pines makes it easy.
Speaker 4: He's one of the smartest people I've met and has
Speaker 4: a really interdisciplinary understanding. He can go from physics.
Speaker 8: I'm not a practicing physicist, it's not my job, and
Speaker 8: I'm trying to like familiar as.
Speaker 9: Myself with Garrett Liasy's stuff, with Sabina stuff, wolf from
Speaker 9: and Jonathan Garard.
Speaker 4: But you can also understand the minutia of Washington and
Speaker 4: how it works.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's why I like him. Yeah, he's unusual.
Speaker 4: He is very unusual. So you ended up known as
Speaker 4: one of Robert McNamara's whiz kids quote unquote and just
Speaker 4: this kind of child prodigy. But you grew up on
Speaker 4: the other side of the tracks, and so I'd love
Speaker 4: to hear just a little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 5: Well, I was burned up burning in the middle of
Speaker 5: the Great Depression, and my mother and father were immigrants
Speaker 5: from Sweden. We lived right by Arrogans at Bay, just
Speaker 5: Atletic and I was just turning seven. My mother said, well,
Speaker 5: this is the day we have to start working. So
Speaker 5: when you come home from school, I'm sure your daughter
Speaker 5: of the moor and bring home do let's be run
Speaker 5: rationally at don't try to meet rush. So I learned
Speaker 5: to use the boat, learned the fish. To learn them,
Speaker 5: you get traps. They even had lobster traps, dig up shelfish.
Speaker 5: So every day brought home something. It became second nation.
Speaker 5: Sometimes I had to stop and pick up an ice,
Speaker 5: big piece of ice because we didn't have refrigerators heavy.
Speaker 5: I was still little anyway. When I was thirteen going
Speaker 5: on fourteen, just before my fourteenth birthday, my father was
Speaker 5: had found work as a restoration specialist and we restored
Speaker 5: old mansions and in Newport, around Boston, Piculing near Cambridge,
Speaker 5: and we were working on this big house. He said,
Speaker 5: can you help me, it's a so and so I
Speaker 5: was working with steel wool and some kind of solution
Speaker 5: part clear all of panels, and this big gentleman came
Speaker 5: in the room and said, little young man, what are
Speaker 5: you doing. Yeah, I'm I'm helping my dad. He just
Speaker 5: sit down talking to me, and that was a little
Speaker 5: bit unusual. Why why does he want to talk to
Speaker 5: me anyway? Me talking your money, doing the school, but
Speaker 5: you're learning. About two hours later, my father and said,
Speaker 5: I wanted to take this boy out of your school.
Speaker 5: I wanted to come in September and matriculate in my
Speaker 5: sheep and with him in full scholarship. Oh four a year.
Speaker 5: I'm not sure he used the full four years with him.
Speaker 5: Usual needs were hu internship, you don't have to bring
Speaker 5: by summers and it all goes well. We'll take him
Speaker 5: all the way to the right of the school. I said,
Speaker 5: I'm not ready to name home, and he said, listen
Speaker 5: to me. I'm really offering a whole new life. He said, yeah,
Speaker 5: but I like my life. But how he said he
Speaker 5: was president of m I T. And I didn't know
Speaker 5: then the whole history, the large role he played in
Speaker 5: the session World War. I think he was in terms
Speaker 5: of the World Production Board at some point.
Speaker 4: So this was Carl Compton who was the sitting president
Speaker 4: of m I T, which allowed him, uh, he had
Speaker 4: the power to.
Speaker 3: Yea.
Speaker 5: So we ended up friendly. But he said, you talked
Speaker 5: about things that at the very friends here of.
Speaker 4: Things, and you at that thirteen or fourteen.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he said, you stung me because you brought up
Speaker 5: But it's a photon. Why don't we understand it? Why
Speaker 5: why we had a picture of it? Uh huh, we
Speaker 5: have a picture of everything else. No proton, I said,
Speaker 5: I told her about it, and told her about I
Speaker 5: didn't know inside the level it I just happened. So
Speaker 5: I said, it's something that our perends in interaction with
Speaker 5: something else. Probably know the poton and probably it's in
Speaker 5: posts and probably there doesn't matter how far apart. It's
Speaker 5: just that interaction. But you can't get a picture of
Speaker 5: it cause those posters are so too fast and designs.
Speaker 5: There's two different things. Probably it's more than two, probably
Speaker 5: as many. And that's the problem that you're trying to
Speaker 5: get something specific but it's not specific. And he said, no,
Speaker 5: it's not that. So you don't understand. You haven't mind
Speaker 5: your same beyond. But in the biggest minds, I said, yes,
Speaker 5: but I'm not ready your home home.
Speaker 4: Malm Grim displayed knowledge of physics concepts with Compton that
Speaker 4: he wasn't supposed to, not only because he was too
Speaker 4: young to know these concepts, but because they hadn't even
Speaker 4: been proven experimentally. Yet entangled photons are considered a single
Speaker 4: system in quantum mechanics, meaning that even when separated by
Speaker 4: large distances, they instantly affect each other's states, essentially acting
Speaker 4: as a single unit. They also conserve quantum properties with
Speaker 4: respect to one another. This is now commonplace knowledge, but
Speaker 4: Malmgrim was saying this at the age of fourteen in
Speaker 4: nineteen fifty and while entanglement as a concept was predicted
Speaker 4: by Einstein and his colleagues in nineteen thirty five, the
Speaker 4: treatment of entangled photons as a system was only made
Speaker 4: explicit in the sixties and seventies with Bells in equality
Speaker 4: theorem and with the measurements of physicists John Klausser. So
Speaker 4: how did young Malmgram understand this concept at fourteen as
Speaker 4: a poor painter's son.
Speaker 7: There's a bit of a backstory, and part of my
Speaker 7: job in the interview is just to pull out some
Speaker 7: of this background that led to my father's extraordinary career.
Speaker 7: But the key was, before you met Carl Coompton, you'd
Speaker 7: written to the Atomic Energy Agency asking for background on
Speaker 7: nuclear physics, so you'd at that age already read an
Speaker 7: immense amount.
Speaker 4: Can we show some of that correspondent. Yeah, that we
Speaker 4: have this is amazing. This's here the control of atomic energy.
Speaker 4: So this is what they sent back.
Speaker 7: Yeah, not only that to you genetic effects of atomic
Speaker 7: bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Speaker 4: See, that's really interesting. They were really interested in that,
Speaker 4: the genetics stuff. And you have Debt lev Bronc is
Speaker 4: written about here. You know, det Le Bronc was the
Speaker 4: president of the Rockefeller Foundation, but he was also president
Speaker 4: of Johns Hopkins who was rumored to be on this
Speaker 4: quote unquote Majestic twelve and do autopsies on non human
Speaker 4: intelligence bodies and so. And then you had all these
Speaker 4: studies going on at the time, like the Cambridge Labs
Speaker 4: where you had a polaroid founder and a bunch of
Speaker 4: these guys studying human genetics with respect to radiation. And
Speaker 4: Annie Jacobson has uncovered a lot about Area fifty one
Speaker 4: where they were doing a lot of you know, human
Speaker 4: genetic experimentation visa V radiation as well.
Speaker 7: And again some of these photographs are quite extraordinary. And
Speaker 7: when it came across them in Dad's old files, like
Speaker 7: what the heck are these?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 7: And they're from the Atomic Energy Commission in their photographs
Speaker 7: of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Speaker 4: These are Geiger counteries.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 4: You were telling me last.
Speaker 7: Night this is Hiroshima credit the US Air Force.
Speaker 4: Wow, this is amazing.
Speaker 7: So that's why he knew a lot at that age.
Speaker 7: And Carl Compton starts to register the president of my
Speaker 7: Tea that he's got this kid who's basically holding the
Speaker 7: paybucket for his dad, and he knows a lot about photons,
Speaker 7: and so I think that's where this began. He was
Speaker 7: identified at a very early age, Yes, as someone with
Speaker 7: a very particular proclivity. Yeah, and then fast forward, because
Speaker 7: you know, I looked at my dad's career. I look
Speaker 7: back and I'm like, how the heck did you end
Speaker 7: up at age twenty seven being the joint liaison between
Speaker 7: the Joint Chiefs and the President of United States National
Speaker 7: Security Council under Bob McNamara and JFK, just as the
Speaker 7: Cuban missile crisis is the beginning. And you know, Dad
Speaker 7: has an amazing story to tell about what it was
Speaker 7: like to be in that room as the decisions were
Speaker 7: being made, and he played a really critical part in
Speaker 7: preventing a nuclear catastrophe.
Speaker 4: That's so amazing.
Speaker 7: Which is a story I think you should tell.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't wait to hear. But clearly you had
Speaker 4: been tracked at a young age. I mean, this is
Speaker 4: a letter that you're receiving from Oakridge National Labs and
Speaker 4: it's atomic bomb engineering. So it's clear that they are like, Okay,
Speaker 4: here's this whiz kid. Let's give him a limited information set,
Speaker 4: see what he can do with it, and maybe have
Speaker 4: some sort of initiation path. How you almost, you know,
Speaker 4: serendipitously and miraculously wind up at Carl Compton's house holding
Speaker 4: a paint bucket. I don't quite know. I do can't
Speaker 4: explain that.
Speaker 6: Who is this Carl Compton? Well.
Speaker 4: He served as the president of MIT from nineteen thirty
Speaker 4: to nineteen forty eight. During that time, he also served
Speaker 4: on Franklin Delano Roosevelt's National Defense Research Council and worked
Speaker 4: closely with Van Var Bush on federally funded scientific research
Speaker 4: for the promotion of American military supremacy. At MIT, Compton
Speaker 4: was heavily involved in the famous rad Lab in its
Speaker 4: development of American radar. His top technical aid was John Trump.
Speaker 4: If you recognize that name, it's because John Trump is
Speaker 4: the late uncle of our current sitting President Donald Trump,
Speaker 4: and John Trump was charged with investigating tesla's files that
Speaker 4: were confiscated by the FBI to see if they'd confer
Speaker 4: any tactical warfare advantages to the United States. One of
Speaker 4: Trump's last interviews was also featured in a documentary on
Speaker 4: Thomas Townsend Brown's Philadelphia experiment.
Speaker 10: And I was particularly looking for something which would be
Speaker 10: evidence of a secret weapon, which was a matter of
Speaker 10: concern to the United States.
Speaker 4: But I digress for the purposes of this conversation with Harold.
Speaker 4: Carl Compton pops up in UFO history twice. First, you
Speaker 4: have Robert Starbacker, former head of Washington National Labs, also
Speaker 4: one of America's premier nuclear scientists. Starbacker is famously on
Speaker 4: records saying that UFO secrecy is classified at two levels
Speaker 4: higher than the hydrogen bomb. But Starbacker also told nuclear
Speaker 4: engineer and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman that none other than
Speaker 4: MIT President Carl Compton was briefed on UFO technology at
Speaker 4: Right Airfield in nineteen fifty. But there are more UFO
Speaker 4: touch points for Compton. Another researcher in California named William
Speaker 4: Steinmann had been corresponding with Fred Darwin, the former executive
Speaker 4: director of the Guided Missile Committee for the DODS R
Speaker 4: and D Board from nineteen forty nine to nineteen fifty four.
Speaker 4: Darwin listed these names as involved in a special committee
Speaker 4: on flying saucers at the highest level, doctor Van var Bush,
Speaker 4: doctor Lloyd Berkner, doctor Robert F. Reinhardt, doctor Eric A. Walker,
Speaker 4: doctor John von Neuman, and one doctor Carl T.
Speaker 6: Compton.
Speaker 4: Finally, when government transparency researcher John Greenwald used the Freedom
Speaker 4: of Information Act to retrieve Compton's records, he received a
Speaker 4: reply back in April of twenty fourteen, quote unquote, records
Speaker 4: which may have been responsive to your request were destroyed
Speaker 4: August thirtieth, two thousand and six. Why would the FBI
Speaker 4: destroy a file on an innocent university professor and why
Speaker 4: would they have a file on him in the first place?
Speaker 4: Those are good questions. And how did little Harold Malgram
Speaker 4: somehow end up holding a paint bucket at Carl Compton's
Speaker 4: house A couple of years after Harold had written to
Speaker 4: the Atomic Energy Commission wanting to learn more about the
Speaker 4: American nuclear program that might be an even better question.
Speaker 7: Well, and he had gone on to work with Tom Schelling,
Speaker 7: who was father of game theory, yes, the application to
Speaker 7: conflict resolution across many different things, but nuclear and working
Speaker 7: with many Nobel Prize winners, including Sir John Hicks at Oxford.
Speaker 7: And so I think when Kennedy came in, he knew
Speaker 7: some of the Nobel Prize winners and he asked them,
Speaker 7: who's your brightest kid? And Dad's name just kept showing
Speaker 7: up on the list.
Speaker 4: It's fascinating. So then, okay, what happens. I so you're
Speaker 4: recognized by Carl Company, you have this correspondence with the
Speaker 4: Atomic Energy Commission. How do you end up from that
Speaker 4: situation to the situation room during the Cuban missile crisis?
Speaker 4: As he to the youngest person in the room.
Speaker 5: I'm still finding a reconstruct. Yeah. I was still a
Speaker 5: human athlete and a really pop student. I was right.
Speaker 5: I was first, along with another person who later became
Speaker 5: Chief Justice of the Arkansas State Supreme Court. I had
Speaker 5: moved from physics to the economic fears.
Speaker 2: I got.
Speaker 5: I have my parents need help and I need it older,
Speaker 5: and I need to do something. He makes money. Economic
Speaker 5: sounds like money, So I got a grant from Yalder.
Speaker 5: You going somewhere, and I wanted to go to Oxford
Speaker 5: as a dream, and I went there. Many found in
Speaker 5: love with that, and I didn't really study anything specifically.
Speaker 5: I went to everything and and then I met a
Speaker 5: lady there who is American, and those things happen, and you,
Speaker 5: I'm pretty attached. And I came back from after my run.
Speaker 5: You rent to Harvard and after I was partnering way
Speaker 5: through the first term and McGeorge Bundy, whose Njean, had
Speaker 5: me in. He said, and we hear you're you're thinking
Speaker 5: your leaving and you're back to Oxford. But we want
Speaker 5: to offer you something special. We will give you three years,
Speaker 5: all the expenses in flooding summer, and all you have
Speaker 5: to do is write a book. You don't have to
Speaker 5: attain any classes. If you write the book, we longer
Speaker 5: certainly publish it and that will be your PhD. Yeh,
Speaker 5: So that's a great deal, said, He said, a great deal,
Speaker 5: And I said, yeah, but my brain was somewhat excited
Speaker 5: by this girl. But also Oxford offered me. They said,
Speaker 5: just come here, but we'll take care of you. You
Speaker 5: can do your PhD here, And so I did that.
Speaker 2: Married.
Speaker 5: That girl was my mother, and you know there's always
Speaker 5: an element of frailty in unexpected ways in taking care
Speaker 5: of my mail. But at arpend, Sir John her decided well,
Speaker 5: he and his wife invited me to dinner, and she
Speaker 5: explained she was a public finance expert. So she decided
Speaker 5: to explain to me her husband felt I was an
Speaker 5: original thinker and that they only come alone once in
Speaker 5: twenty five and thirty forty years. She said, at Yale
Speaker 5: you went deep into mathematical economics. So I told my
Speaker 5: husband that you got to convince this young man who
Speaker 5: just dump all that mathematics in the storage said and
Speaker 5: started working but fundamentally at behavioral economics. And he didn't
Speaker 5: remember the first paper I gave him. It was Billy
Speaker 5: a moment of insight. I gave this paper, nine pages,
Speaker 5: roughly full of math. He said, this looks very interesting.
Speaker 5: We come back next week after I've read it. Came
Speaker 5: back next week, he said, don't sit here in the
Speaker 5: student reception room, coming to my inerchambers. Sit down here
Speaker 5: by the fire. I thought, is this bad or good?
Speaker 5: And I began to inflate. He really thinks I'm good,
Speaker 5: he said, but you know it took me the entire
Speaker 5: week to find it out. How many people of my
Speaker 5: caliber do you think in your lifetime we're going to
Speaker 5: spend three or four days of your time. I've had
Speaker 5: no time trying to understand you, he said, I think
Speaker 5: this is not the way to make part of us.
Speaker 5: So instead, it's near the end of term. I'm going
Speaker 5: in a home with big amount of the humvens decline
Speaker 5: and full, which is in several volumes. Read everything you
Speaker 5: can before me. The vacation to her.
Speaker 4: Is the kind of fall around.
Speaker 2: I get it.
Speaker 5: So I came back. He said, but if you learned,
Speaker 5: I said, I only out doing something chapter and whatever,
Speaker 5: And he said, it's not bad. The reason I wanted
Speaker 5: you to read that a dead run is because you
Speaker 5: have to know how it was written. Gimmons didn't do
Speaker 5: it break by brick. He wrote it a dead run
Speaker 5: from his mind. He said, you got to learn who
Speaker 5: do that? You have plenty to say, you know how
Speaker 5: to say it, so write it that way. Don't stop
Speaker 5: to see if you can fit it to some model.
Speaker 5: And so we had a marvelous experience. And then soon
Speaker 5: afterwards he said, the people you should meet, so some
Speaker 5: of the best people that Cambridge came to see me,
Speaker 5: famous names, and then he said Higher free from Higher.
Speaker 5: I persuaded him to come to Oxford and media, so
Speaker 5: he came. I spent time with him. For me, you know,
Speaker 5: it wasn't being I knew where he was. It was
Speaker 5: very impressive. And then on another occasion, there had been
Speaker 5: a big debate in the nineteen twenties going into the
Speaker 5: theories between Moon being by nisus On behalf of the
Speaker 5: Austrian capitalism economists and ecomun a central planet and the
Speaker 5: opposite point one meaning was Osfield Langer as fill Lavia
Speaker 5: came to Osford, I haven't dinner with me. We had
Speaker 5: a fight centralization or manic do grains itself because you
Speaker 5: restrict everybody from innovation adaptation. Once you do that, there's
Speaker 5: no change.
Speaker 4: So you would be more on the Austrian school side. Okay,
Speaker 4: I am too.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, although I'm far inferious, I'm still the same.
Speaker 5: I'm totally innvinced that China a lab speakau of over centralization. Anyway,
Speaker 5: by the way, in the nineteen eighties I was in China.
Speaker 5: There's some kind of sr I.
Speaker 4: Meeting Stanford Research institute.
Speaker 5: And they invited me alone. And the senior Chinese is
Speaker 5: very interesting this years later, so can we have dinner
Speaker 5: with you alone? Okay? Why not? So three of the
Speaker 5: most senior if you having competially, we had learned to
Speaker 5: him we know about your work on centralization. Really, how
Speaker 5: do you know about had your thesis translated? And we
Speaker 5: talked to I feel that and some other people. We
Speaker 5: had an argument, I said, over a centralization moving bringing
Speaker 5: your destruction. It's some impossible. It's two be the manage anyway.
Speaker 5: So going back from Oxford, I finished up there and
Speaker 5: there was bedding more like an NBA or National Football
Speaker 5: leam bidding your graduates. So MRT and Stanford and however
Speaker 5: and some others. Princeton offered me a post and Coroneau said,
Speaker 5: real trump, the others will offer you a new chair
Speaker 5: just in down now, so you will you can bypass
Speaker 5: the normal process of seven years and assistant professor and
Speaker 5: associated professor and mentioned you can start at the top. Okay,
Speaker 5: I'll ave up. And I came through Parnell with Pipper's mother.
Speaker 5: Pipper was born in May of that year, and we
Speaker 5: were living in the house and namberkof the Russian author. Wow,
Speaker 5: he was on leave and I at least from.
Speaker 4: Him in Ithaca, New York.
Speaker 5: Yeah, wow, Yeah, it was an adventure and he was
Speaker 5: something impressive. I mean, all these fortunate developments happened in
Speaker 5: my life.
Speaker 7: By the way, these also became clues for me later
Speaker 7: because I realized Nabakov was I said to be a
Speaker 7: CIA asset and was used to help use literature as
Speaker 7: a means of propaganda. And you know, there are lots
Speaker 7: of stories about the intelligence agencies using doctor Chevagos as
Speaker 7: a medium for fomenting opposition within the Soviet Union, And
Speaker 7: so I'm kind of like, how the heck do we
Speaker 7: end up in Nabokov's house? And maybe the answer was that,
Speaker 7: you know, there was already at that time an intelligence
Speaker 7: world that you know, in later years because of dad's
Speaker 7: work in nuclear negotiations, that again maybe he'd been kind
Speaker 7: of identified early on. But I would love for your
Speaker 7: dad to just dive into You are in the situation room,
Speaker 7: you are down to the last three hours before you
Speaker 7: all think that you're hitting the nuclear god button, and
Speaker 7: can you just describe what was it like in that
Speaker 7: moment and how did you have vert the nuclear crisis.
Speaker 11: A strict quarantine on all offensive military equipment on the
Speaker 11: shipment to Cuba is being initiated.
Speaker 5: I was a point that there'son between mac number and
Speaker 5: make sure Bundy and the JFK. I mean pretty pretty job.
Speaker 4: Mcnamary's secretary of Defense said the JAB.
Speaker 5: And so all right, I'm there. I'm wondering what I'm
Speaker 5: going to work on. And suddenly the human missidver prisis
Speaker 5: unposed and I get a call and Bob brunts you
Speaker 5: to work directly with a smaller room in the war room.
Speaker 5: I said, what's the war room. It's where the generals meet.
Speaker 5: Decide you no, yo, because they have the weapons. Meaning
Speaker 5: white House doesn't happen.
Speaker 4: And says is Bob mclaman. He wants you to meet you.
Speaker 5: Bind me to be there in that room as his guy.
Speaker 5: They would know him his guy. And then I said,
Speaker 5: and then that can be easier to hear from this
Speaker 5: young sport. Don't tell them what you thinks should happen.
Speaker 5: Ask them a lootic questions your drivers to slow them down,
Speaker 5: reduce the heat in the room. Everybody can work. Come
Speaker 5: and if you just keep out I've seen questions and
Speaker 5: make them think you'll be surprised how far that goes.
Speaker 5: And it buys us time. It takes the pressure off
Speaker 5: from them because there are some people in that group.
Speaker 5: I didn't realize it was cursedly made. They're worried about
Speaker 5: who runs to go ahead and punished Russia for even trying.
Speaker 5: So so he gets started in that and after a
Speaker 5: few days got used to the group. They get used
Speaker 5: to me. They didn't ask you to get the coffee.
Speaker 5: They treeing me like okaymbrilong there And I didn't say
Speaker 5: anything that made them. I didn't talk down to them
Speaker 5: and asked them how you know, how's your wife today?
Speaker 5: To talk? And we got to them last hours, roughly
Speaker 5: four hours when JFK's home. Whose job? We put a
Speaker 5: quarantine around Uban. If you, if you're one of your
Speaker 5: ships brief through the quarantine, that will be an act
Speaker 5: of rule and we will take action being specified. And
Speaker 5: among the generals there were arguments, what should we do?
Speaker 5: Do we take out the missiles that are in human? Now?
Speaker 5: We don't know whether Summer armed or not. Do we
Speaker 5: know that they have the ability to do more than
Speaker 5: we see? Might they start World War three in order
Speaker 5: to take you got to step ahead. This was the
Speaker 5: time of mutually assured destruction. It was like really terrifying
Speaker 5: in some things. And so we in that final hours
Speaker 5: waiting to see if they were gonna stop or not,
Speaker 5: and there was communication going on. None of us were
Speaker 5: tribute between her show and JFKM. And there was one
Speaker 5: additional element the history books have omitted. The Russian ambassador
Speaker 5: Dobrinon he arrived that year in Washington. He was unique.
Speaker 5: He wasn't a typical diplomat. He was a member of
Speaker 5: the Central Committee in Moscow. They sent him to Washington
Speaker 5: to as the highest ranking politician in Moscow, and in
Speaker 5: that position he was able to himself for it with
Speaker 5: the top people in the Central Committee and anyway in
Speaker 5: the in those final hours, agutation level was high. We
Speaker 5: all sat down after somebody had coffee break and one
Speaker 5: of the seniors in generals sent a signal them we
Speaker 5: didn't have cell phones, and Age came in said, I
Speaker 5: mentionined to call Mary, Why tell you load the car,
Speaker 5: get everything ready to go, and drive as fast as
Speaker 5: you can to Maine to our country place and then
Speaker 5: let's resumed them gentlemen.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like literally, Mary, take the kids get out
Speaker 7: of here right, like we're about to be at the end.
Speaker 4: Okay, And this is the.
Speaker 7: Bit Dad, where it's so important that it's Curtis on
Speaker 7: May who wants to drop.
Speaker 4: So maybe doctor Strange Law wasn't so it was based Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, let me finish the story. They in the route.
Speaker 5: I said, gentlemen, I mean all the thinking of the
Speaker 5: last ever since the bomb was dropped in in Japan.
Speaker 5: All the thing is about usually assured destruction. If we go,
Speaker 5: we both get obliterated. Does this make any sense to
Speaker 5: any of us in this room. There must be some
Speaker 5: degree of action less than that. And they all said, yeah,
Speaker 5: well we haven't explored that. I said, yeah, we don't
Speaker 5: have any calibration, any idea small steps or ways to
Speaker 5: convince that we're serious. Might I mean, I mean, if
Speaker 5: we were attacked Russia. But but but are we really
Speaker 5: ready for them now? If we attack human and Russia
Speaker 5: thinks it's the first step that they want to get
Speaker 5: one step ahead of us by being first actor, well
Speaker 5: that would be better. We know what they're thinking, but
Speaker 5: we have to kind of think about that, or we
Speaker 5: may take some step and they fire a little bit
Speaker 5: at us. But a little bit makes us pissed off,
Speaker 5: and then we decide to unload everything. First of the
Speaker 5: May's in this room saying, my strategic bombers already. You
Speaker 5: know we had all these missiles, but.
Speaker 4: His n his nickname is bombs away man.
Speaker 5: I have no I had no idea would I'm miserable, mean,
Speaker 5: arrogant guy. This was I mean, I just there was
Speaker 5: nothing written a lot about him other than he was
Speaker 5: super aggressive.
Speaker 4: But is he chief of staff of the Air Force
Speaker 4: at this time?
Speaker 7: A commands commands and it's important that you mentioned how
Speaker 7: he says, my guys, we keep setting them up to
Speaker 7: the point of no return.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right to say. He said in the room
Speaker 5: to all these other generals and the Admeralds, you can't
Speaker 5: imagine the morale problem I have every day I send
Speaker 5: my boys out there. They reached the point of no
Speaker 5: return where if they keep going, the run out of fuel.
Speaker 5: And you said I have to order them back, he said,
Speaker 5: the morale is really they're ready.
Speaker 4: He's playing with millions of people's lives to to make
Speaker 4: sure that the morale of his you know, units are okay.
Speaker 12: President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair must
Speaker 12: but I do say no more than ten to twenty
Speaker 12: million killed top, depending on the breaks.
Speaker 5: That's he said that everyone in the room and lap
Speaker 5: they didn't want to eyeball. You know, yeah I didn't.
Speaker 4: Yeah. It's like if you have nothing nice to say,
Speaker 4: say nothing at all. I mean, he's also for the
Speaker 4: context for the audience. He was in charge of the
Speaker 4: five hundred and ninth Atomic bomber Squadron in Roswell in
Speaker 4: New Mexico that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima
Speaker 4: and Nagasaka.
Speaker 5: Well, and he was trying to blow the firebomby in Germany. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, his idea enemy is obliterating them. Anyway,
Speaker 5: I didn't know why I was up there against but
Speaker 5: you know, it might have scured me, but it didn't.
Speaker 5: So I said, well, listen, all the rest of us,
Speaker 5: let's how to play the options. We slowly taught, and
Speaker 5: then it turned out that we got mured. The Russian
Speaker 5: stopped the boats at the point of quarantine, and I said,
Speaker 5: can we agree that we should back off? Who shouts
Speaker 5: to bang off and curse me? He said, no way,
Speaker 5: We've got to teach them a lesson. That they messing
Speaker 5: with us. They have to have something to remember. We
Speaker 5: need to we need some surgical strikes on Russia. It
Speaker 5: doesn't have to be population or in but we need
Speaker 5: to make it painful. And then I said, well, but
Speaker 5: that needs us back into will they think that this
Speaker 5: is just the beginning of our again we have I
Speaker 5: mean simply haven't had a discussion, but you have no
Speaker 5: communications channel to do with that. It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 5: It seems to me backing you off for now, and
Speaker 5: then the discussions continue, however, we avoid this being the preference.
Speaker 5: Generals agreed and the one that had called his wife
Speaker 5: push the button his age means and show Mary back
Speaker 5: the show.
Speaker 7: But you also made a suggestion that if you hit Moscow,
Speaker 7: there wouldn't be anybody to negotiate with. And further, if
Speaker 7: you let it leak to the Russians that you wouldn't
Speaker 7: hit Moscow, maybe they wouldn't hit Washington. And everybody in
Speaker 7: the room just love that.
Speaker 4: And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically backed
Speaker 4: them into a corner where you say what would be
Speaker 4: your prime target first? And then they say Moscow, and
Speaker 4: then you say, oh it was it's Moscow. Then you
Speaker 4: can't talk to anybody in Moscow. There's nobody negotiate.
Speaker 5: Well, thus we've been through them because I said, it's madness.
Speaker 5: You don't if you're going to start something and you
Speaker 5: need to stop. In that system, there's only one point
Speaker 5: of decision. If you're hitting Moscow, there's no one to
Speaker 5: talk to.
Speaker 4: And then that's at that point, right, le May storms
Speaker 4: out and gets all angry. Is that is that right?
Speaker 2: Or?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 5: He literally got up. I was saying these papers down. Okay,
Speaker 5: I'm not going I refuse to remember.
Speaker 1: This man, man, but I.
Speaker 2: Have to show you I did not book.
Speaker 4: No, I know you didn't.
Speaker 5: No, he had, by the way, just before then raise
Speaker 5: the morning level to jaf Khn too. It was not
Speaker 5: approved by the president. Really heeded it.
Speaker 4: Unapproved, He raised the world.
Speaker 5: He seemed to have that power, I mean the surprised.
Speaker 5: But anyway, he may have had that power interested anyway.
Speaker 5: I mean when I looked back and saying, Jesus, you
Speaker 5: know I stood in the way of this historic bigger bottom,
Speaker 5: I mean he could have got stood up and tried
Speaker 5: to beat me up. I mean that kind of person
Speaker 5: when he stormed vel it relief to the whole room.
Speaker 5: But it was the first in a series of evident
Speaker 5: clashes between him and JFK. It was personal somehow, it
Speaker 5: all radiated this is not about Russians only something some
Speaker 5: thing was growing on in his head. Bridge learn later
Speaker 5: about some of the other staties.
Speaker 4: But well, and you had the Bay of Pigs before
Speaker 4: that as well, which is this crucial kind of juncture
Speaker 4: where you know, I think actually Eisenhower kind of left
Speaker 4: his second term slightly skeptical of Dulles. I think initially
Speaker 4: he was willing to kind of go along with his
Speaker 4: plans and JFK didn't quite know what to think. And
Speaker 4: after the Bay of Pigs, it was really this clear
Speaker 4: rupture where you had the kind of CIA sort of
Speaker 4: you know, quote unquote deep state, and they had sort
Speaker 4: of their own plans and they really wanted to oust
Speaker 4: Castro and Guevara, and then you had JFK and he
Speaker 4: felt like this whole thing was just botched. And they
Speaker 4: send these Cuban exiles in there to kind of create
Speaker 4: this revolution, but it's kind of half done and the
Speaker 4: exiles are actually left kind of isolated. Doesn't quite work out,
Speaker 4: And then you have this rift where you have people
Speaker 4: like Curtis LeMay and Alan Dulles and complete loggerheads with
Speaker 4: JFKJFK gets angry, says they want to scatter the CIA
Speaker 4: to the winds.
Speaker 2: Residents saying you're gonna bring the CEDI A to one
Speaker 2: thousand pieces?
Speaker 4: Is that roughly right?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. So this this was the prison, this
Speaker 5: that tarion to what became a flash of how do
Speaker 5: we respond when we have an excuse? And here's the
Speaker 5: main at least let me send my bombers after some
Speaker 5: strategic facilities of the Russians. But how do you sort
Speaker 5: out for the Russians point of view? Barber's telling me out,
Speaker 5: we don't know the trajectory, we can't study that. It's
Speaker 5: like a missile, you know, once inspiring and reres going
Speaker 5: so high risk. And I said, this doesn't make sense.
Speaker 5: So everybody, a really except person may he brew him
Speaker 5: up when he thought he was gonna domin it. Well,
Speaker 5: I mean I didn't know that this was a moment
Speaker 5: of history and that somehow my arguments run. But on
Speaker 5: the other him, I thought, this is why Maximus, I
Speaker 5: mean down here.
Speaker 4: Well, that seems it's such an act of genius to
Speaker 4: him on his part to call you in as a
Speaker 4: twenty seven year old, to stagnate these sort of more aggressive,
Speaker 4: you know, guys like Curtis Lamy. And you think of
Speaker 4: the way Robert McNamara is depicted in like you know,
Speaker 4: Errol Morris's Fog of War, just as an example, and
Speaker 4: he's seen as this sort of warmonger, and this, you know,
Speaker 4: cuts completely against that.
Speaker 11: Macnam Do you mean to say that instead of killing
Speaker 11: one hundred thousand, bringing it that an hundred thousand Japanese
Speaker 11: civilians in that one night, we should have burned the
Speaker 11: death a lesser number or none and then had our
Speaker 11: soul across the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in
Speaker 11: the tens of thousands.
Speaker 2: Is that what you're proposing? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, No. His instruction, he said, these guys are coming
Speaker 5: in that room. Some of them have side arms that
Speaker 5: are fully lowered with the same ye old.
Speaker 4: Oh the room.
Speaker 5: Joe said, your house is lower the temperary. Yeah wow,
Speaker 5: And see if you're stretching out, give us time to
Speaker 5: reverse something out of what foresight on his part.
Speaker 12: Johnston Island was the centerment, launch and experimental activity for
Speaker 12: the nineteen sixty two High Altitude weapon effects testing termed
Speaker 12: Operation fish Bowl.
Speaker 4: Running from April to October of nineteen sixty two, Operation
Speaker 4: Dominic was a classified American program conducting thirty one nuclear
Speaker 4: test explosions in the Marshall Islands. These tests were designed
Speaker 4: to study the effects of nuclear detonations in high altitudes
Speaker 4: in space and near space. One of these tests, Starfish Prime,
Speaker 4: created an electromagnetic pulse that extended over fourteen hundred kilometers,
Speaker 4: knocked out street lights, triggered burglar alarms, and caused electrical
Speaker 4: surges in nearby Hawaii. It also produced an artificial aurora
Speaker 4: visible from Hawaii to New Zealand, and it even created
Speaker 4: a man made radiation belt similar to the Van Allen
Speaker 4: Belt that destroyed multiple satellites. The last few tests of
Speaker 4: this series were the Bluegill tests, which involved a unique
Speaker 4: X ray based missile defense system, and Harold was put
Speaker 4: in charge of doing all of the cost assessments for
Speaker 4: this test. Tell us about the Bluegill Triple Prime test.
Speaker 5: Well I arrived in Washington summer of sixty two. In
Speaker 5: sixty one, there were two high level tests incoming missile
Speaker 5: and an interceptor fired up to see if they could
Speaker 5: stop it. Those two tests failed some of sixty two.
Speaker 5: I arrived and first I'm in the middle of this
Speaker 5: missirifics and then before barely over, how would you set
Speaker 5: up a small group? Will you give you the people
Speaker 5: to devise the outlines of an anti missile system so
Speaker 5: that we can start anticipating for the future. I said, yeah,
Speaker 5: that's something that Darker should do with the bastard. And
Speaker 5: I said no, no, we want is a concise talking
Speaker 5: back to the anvelope calculation, what should be the elements
Speaker 5: of it, what would it cost and how much would
Speaker 5: it cost? But the enemy can upset it. I said, okay,
Speaker 5: I'm taking on and I got that assignment. I'm taking
Speaker 5: Holy how this is huge. And they gave me these
Speaker 5: people in the Joint Seats of Staff, in the Reponsitions
Speaker 5: Evaluation Group. We am I talking with these guys.
Speaker 4: Missile defense was a major priority for the United States
Speaker 4: in the heart of the Cuban missile crisis. While American
Speaker 4: offensive nuclear capabilities were ahead of the Soviets, the US
Speaker 4: still didn't have precise ways of defense against a nuclear attack,
Speaker 4: but there were some novel ideas in missile defense at
Speaker 4: the time. In nineteen sixty one, the Rand Corporation wrote
Speaker 4: a report called some New Considerations concerning the Nuclear Test Ban,
Speaker 4: which highlighted the susceptibility of the us ICBM re entry
Speaker 4: vehicles to high energy X rays.
Speaker 13: To say, this is a piece of steel and it's
Speaker 13: in out space. If you impinge high energy X rays
Speaker 13: on this side, so what that does is blows chunks
Speaker 13: off the inside at hypersonic speeds.
Speaker 4: This novel insight made its way into the operation Dominic
Speaker 4: Marshall Islands tests. Here's where it gets interesting. These X
Speaker 4: ray emissions could also take out surrounding UFOs.
Speaker 5: So I just got that going and as number three
Speaker 5: in that series in October. If I remember the days,
Speaker 5: it was while we were busy with Cuba.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was during the Cuban missile crisis. Actually the
Speaker 4: Bluebill Triple Prime, So it was October of nineteen sixty two, right.
Speaker 5: So I got a report because I'm in charge of
Speaker 5: this new project, the same report they meant to JFK. Now,
Speaker 5: if you assume JFK, it was read by McGeorge Bundy,
Speaker 5: that's his job, and I knew if it must have
Speaker 5: been read by macimur John McNaughton, the Neeral Council, they
Speaker 5: were all interactive and almost certainly it will be j
Speaker 5: because Vice President anyway know and behold they dashed down.
Speaker 5: I said, I'm puzzled here. And but the report you've
Speaker 5: give me, you have videos of taking them this incoming
Speaker 5: missile with especially enhanced X ray projection system. But when
Speaker 5: you did that, you noticed that there had been some
Speaker 5: object that had appeared on the screen enjoining Antagon and
Speaker 5: Loan following the incoming missile down.
Speaker 7: By the way, can I just interject because for me
Speaker 7: and I kind of got my dad all up to
Speaker 7: speed on the whole Why is Congress pursuing non human intelligence?
Speaker 7: Why are they passing whistleblower legislation? And so when we
Speaker 7: started to talk about this, so he said, there's this
Speaker 7: orb around the missile. And I'm like, so, didn't you
Speaker 7: think that was weird? And I realized that actually, I
Speaker 7: think that the people of that generation were so accustomed
Speaker 7: to seeing them that they didn't They knew it wasn't Russian,
Speaker 7: they knew it wasn't in those days, it was never
Speaker 7: going to be Chinese. They knew it wasn't a threats.
Speaker 7: So Dad said, yeah, we called it a tagalong, a tagalong, Like,
Speaker 7: didn't you ask what it was? And he's sort of
Speaker 7: replied in such a way that I realized nobody asked
Speaker 7: any questions at that time, and they were probably encouraged
Speaker 7: not to ask any.
Speaker 5: Questions when I saw there's jug.
Speaker 4: That's what you would call them tagalongs. Wow, So that
Speaker 4: it's so casual that you just call them tagalogs.
Speaker 7: I think they were so inured to seeing them, they
Speaker 7: were like tagalog.
Speaker 4: The UFO nuclear connection was a complete open secret among
Speaker 4: top military brass in the fifties and sixties. In a
Speaker 4: nineteen fifty two Look magazine article titled the Hunt for
Speaker 4: the Flying Saucer, Chief UFO Investigator for the Air Force,
Speaker 4: Captain Edward J. Rupelt is quoted saying that many of
Speaker 4: the sightings reported had originated at one atomic weapons related
Speaker 4: site or another all around the country. In fact, while
Speaker 4: the Operation Dominic tests were going on in nineteen sixty two,
Speaker 4: an Avco Mark four re entry vehicle attached to an
Speaker 4: Atlas eight F missile was being tested at Cape Canaveral
Speaker 4: in the Atlantic Missile Range in September. This is the
Speaker 4: footage that was taken from that test. At the four
Speaker 4: minute and forty second mark In the video, an object
Speaker 4: appears to phase itself into existence alongside the re entry vehicle,
Speaker 4: which is traveling at twenty thousand feet per second or
Speaker 4: mock eighteen. The official US Air Force NASA postflight report
Speaker 4: even states that the object's quote unquote origin or identification
Speaker 4: could not be determined.
Speaker 6: The very next month.
Speaker 4: After this Atlas test at Cape Canaveral, the Atomic Energy
Speaker 4: Commission conducted the Bluegill Triple Prime test in October of
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty two in the Marshall Islands. The point is
Speaker 4: this was the backdrop for the Bluegill tests, one in
Speaker 4: which the military, scientific, and political elite in America were
Speaker 4: well aware of the connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons.
Speaker 5: An then the I mean missile reaction to this blast
Speaker 5: adverse ray At that moment, the report said, this appeared
Speaker 5: to them.
Speaker 3: This.
Speaker 5: Device, they called it, I said, the tailor alarm. And
Speaker 5: then so I got really, I didn't be accurate with shock.
Speaker 5: I thought, let's find out what that was. And was
Speaker 5: there a recovery, Yes, the Navy had recovered but Phil
Speaker 5: tell me about it, Oh, we can't do that. You
Speaker 5: have need to know about incoming with some and the test,
Speaker 5: but not about the tailor alarm. Why not just to be.
Speaker 7: Clear, you've caught all the que clearances, right, not something
Speaker 7: that you've got all the And they say no, you
Speaker 7: don't need to know.
Speaker 5: Why, Well, I had a blaking besides tops he could
Speaker 5: know all that stuff. I had president in experience for
Speaker 5: the highest level stuff that comes to the president. I
Speaker 5: mean I haven't been you haven't everything. But especially that
Speaker 5: they gave me a blanket futures cumers for weapons. Why
Speaker 5: there is a separate because that was managed by the
Speaker 5: Atomic Energy Commission. There's that was in law suburb but.
Speaker 4: It's it's so interesting because you hear that UFO secrecy
Speaker 4: was sort of bound up in atomic secrecy and the
Speaker 4: Atomic Energy Commission.
Speaker 14: The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the
Speaker 14: same ecosystem of secrecy in some of the same ways
Speaker 14: to protect stuff that they were protecting a nuclear secrets.
Speaker 4: And you don't even have access to the UFO staff
Speaker 4: with all of your que parentsies. Two casey one thirty
Speaker 4: five aircrafts in proximity of the test were gathering footage.
Speaker 4: Australian intelligence analyst Jeffrey Krukshank, who's done The most in
Speaker 4: depth analysis of this test calls the two pieces of
Speaker 4: footage Kettle one and Kettle two.
Speaker 15: A bright fari object tumbles out within the Nukla fireball.
Speaker 2: You believe that that is some kind of craft.
Speaker 15: Just like the one that was following the atlasite f test,
Speaker 15: but disarm it was a real warhead.
Speaker 4: You can see clearly from the Kettle one footage of
Speaker 4: the nuclear blast an unidentified flying object tumble out of
Speaker 4: the nuclear fireball. The official report written about this test
Speaker 4: at the time was written by the Flight Dynamics Laboratory
Speaker 4: at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. The report tries to
Speaker 4: explain the presence of this second thermal source in the
Speaker 4: footage quote unquote, there is no evidence to indicate that
Speaker 4: even the closest pod was ever immersed in the fireball,
Speaker 4: so it definitely wasn't one of the instrumentation pods on
Speaker 4: the missile. If that's not weird enough. These videos were
Speaker 4: declassified to the public in nineteen ninety eight. At the
Speaker 4: declassification review, the Defense Special Weapons Agency, led by doctor
Speaker 4: Byron L. Ristvet, applied a large white triangle to the footage,
Speaker 4: sanitizing it right where you can see the object tumbling
Speaker 4: out of the plume in the Kettle one footage.
Speaker 15: This well known animosity between Los Almas and Lawrence Livermore labs.
Speaker 15: Lawrence Livermore ran one aircraft, Los Almos ran the other.
Speaker 15: The reason why the Kettle one footage was declassified and
Speaker 15: Kettle two wasn't was simply a personal difference in what
Speaker 15: should remain classified in what shouldn't.
Speaker 4: Then, on October twenty first, twenty twenty three, when Jeffrey
Speaker 4: Krukshank sent a mandatory declassification to review request to the
Speaker 4: Department of Energy asking them to declassify this Kettle two
Speaker 4: footage which had been sanitized, The Department of Energy responded
Speaker 4: saying that they were unable to locate the footage. They
Speaker 4: were literally saying they lost the foot of one of
Speaker 4: their most important high altitude nuclear tests. And maybe all
Speaker 4: you need to know is that Bluegill Triple Prime is
Speaker 4: the only one of the Operation Fishbowl nuclear tests where
Speaker 4: any portion of the released video is still sanitized and classified.
Speaker 5: To this day.
Speaker 2: Sorry, that's classified.
Speaker 4: And tellingly, look at what happened when a Freedom of
Speaker 4: Information Act request was sent to the National Nuclear Security Administration.
Speaker 4: Generally around these nineteen sixty two Operation Dominic Tests. The
Speaker 4: exact request was for all records that quote, unquote, mention
Speaker 4: or relate to Starfish Prime and any of the following UFO,
Speaker 4: ap uav AAV any acronym used by the Atomic Energy
Speaker 4: Commission at the time for unidentified flying objects. The National
Speaker 4: Nuclear Security Administration responded the letter back in June of
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, reads it was determined that an additional
Speaker 4: review of your case by the subject matter expert with
Speaker 4: jurisdiction regarding responsive records was required. First of all, who
Speaker 4: are the subject matter experts on UFOs? Second of all,
Speaker 4: this seems like a tacit admission that there are responsive
Speaker 4: records that apply to this Freedom of Information Act request
Speaker 4: that specifically ask for information on UFOs.
Speaker 6: And what about the most.
Speaker 4: Senior official present at Operation Bluegill Triple Prime. If you're
Speaker 4: a head hauncho and you see a UFO tumble out
Speaker 4: of the sky, surely you can't just engage in business
Speaker 4: as usual. While the logs of a nearby Navy ship
Speaker 4: the USS summit count refer to a SOOPA or a
Speaker 4: senior officer President afloat being on board the ship, that
Speaker 4: officer was General Alfred Starboard, the Joint Task Force eight
Speaker 4: commander of Operation dominic. He was positioned around fifteen nautical
Speaker 4: miles from surface zero of Bluegill Triple Prime, which is
Speaker 4: the closest allowable distance by the Range Safety Officer. William Ogle,
Speaker 4: the Los Almost j Division Weapons design Chief, was General
Speaker 4: Starboard's deputy for Operation dominic Ogle rights that General Starboard
Speaker 4: left Johnston Island at four am the night of Operation
Speaker 4: Bluegill Triple Prime. Starboard went from the deck of the
Speaker 4: Summit County ship to taking off on a jet from
Speaker 4: Johnston Island in under four hours. There were still very
Speaker 4: important tests to go, but Starboard apparently needed to leave immediately,
Speaker 4: maybe because of this successful UFO tag along shootdown.
Speaker 5: Brother. What they said is that your project designation was this,
Speaker 5: you know, anti blistic misship, but you we didn't anticipate
Speaker 5: this identified an object, but it's not part of your designation.
Speaker 5: So I said, that's boots you. So I said, I
Speaker 5: need to know what you learned. No, I'm sure in
Speaker 5: different words, that's what came out of the White House
Speaker 5: to the people running the test, who were under the
Speaker 5: jurisdiction of the Atomic Energy Commission under Lawrence Geese, who
Speaker 5: was in charge of all this stuff. He was head
Speaker 5: of the Albert Querhe division of the Atomic Energy Commission.
Speaker 5: But he was running everything that he orver saw everything
Speaker 5: that had to do with looks almost and high level tests.
Speaker 4: And he's randomly Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather. The adoption.
Speaker 5: Amazing, Yeah, it explains a lot. Maybe those talked about
Speaker 5: in some of his earlier reminiscences should reporter. He spent
Speaker 5: all his summers with his grandfather.
Speaker 4: Interesting, really, yes.
Speaker 5: Your grandfather her firm. Ah. Sorry, I'm sure he has
Speaker 5: several summers of space.
Speaker 4: There and now he's got blue origin.
Speaker 6: It's so fine.
Speaker 4: It's just another point in the direction that rocketry is
Speaker 4: not what it seems right.
Speaker 5: So truth have I pressed hard? You know, you have
Speaker 5: to let me know place. So he said, for that,
Speaker 5: you have to come down.
Speaker 4: To He pressed hard with Lawrence Geice, and he said,
Speaker 4: I want to know.
Speaker 5: I didn't know him that I was taking okay.
Speaker 4: But somebody at the Atomic Energy Mission, He.
Speaker 5: Said, you know, I need to know. I'm gonna decide,
Speaker 5: but I need to.
Speaker 7: Know just just to back up. So you go out
Speaker 7: to Los Alamos, you get briefed, you meet Lawrence Keys
Speaker 7: and like literally a couple of weeks later, suddenly JFK,
Speaker 7: LBJ and their teams are going to Los Alamo. So
Speaker 7: I asked the question, Dad, how often does a president
Speaker 7: of the United States go to Los Alamos? So the
Speaker 7: answers number. So what was so extraordinary that they all
Speaker 7: suddenly rush out there? And this is what I think.
Speaker 7: It was a great insight into It was.
Speaker 5: About the tell you alone. That's what they wanted to
Speaker 5: know about. They weren't all fascinated by the test.
Speaker 4: By the tag along itself. So what did when you
Speaker 4: came out two weeks before them? What did you find?
Speaker 4: What did they tell you?
Speaker 5: I met Lawrence Geese. He said, I have this letter
Speaker 5: saying that I can breathe you. I said, thank you,
Speaker 5: because I really He said, well, the tests and details
Speaker 5: are controlled by Naval Intelligence. It was interesting, he said,
Speaker 5: they don't share everything with the Navy Department. They are
Speaker 5: an autonomous too. They are most secure than any other
Speaker 5: intelligence agency.
Speaker 4: It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the
Speaker 4: eighteen nineties.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, just be re beware. The mighty CIA
Speaker 5: is not under for They approved list to circulate, so
Speaker 5: I can talry about that in another vacasion. But anyway,
Speaker 5: so I said, well, but what am I here to
Speaker 5: find out? He said, well, he reads for some stuffs
Speaker 5: on his desk. These are things that have come down
Speaker 5: I'm looking at. Yeah, you know there's round rock, you know.
Speaker 4: So you're looking at like material anomalist material.
Speaker 7: Yeah, debris, yeah, by debris or images debris.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: You know what you said to him, Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: I was sold about those.
Speaker 1: Yeah, put this stuff in your hands.
Speaker 4: What did it feel like?
Speaker 2: It felt? Because it didn't feel any same thing though?
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 4: What color was it.
Speaker 2: Of something in spense?
Speaker 4: What's the color of something in space?
Speaker 3: Hmm?
Speaker 2: Depends on the light in the room or the light
Speaker 2: the camera.
Speaker 4: Was it was it heavy?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean I picked them up. They didn't. I didn't
Speaker 2: put them down at em, So I haven't.
Speaker 4: If you had been there without knowing how it was retrieved,
Speaker 4: would you think that it was at all different than
Speaker 4: like random rocks or.
Speaker 5: Don't know how it was retrieved? He was, but he said,
Speaker 5: known this is some of them, He said, I haven't
Speaker 5: in minds, just you know, there's an examples. I mean,
Speaker 5: he didn't say it for visitors, but I mean whatever
Speaker 5: reason he had there did it?
Speaker 4: Did it? Was it emitting alpha, beta, damma radiation anything
Speaker 4: like that?
Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't know if he he must
Speaker 5: have known it was safe. I mean, had all of
Speaker 5: this instrumentation aroom anyway? So I you know, I just
Speaker 5: what have we learned, because it does pertain to designing
Speaker 5: a missile system of what kinds of things can interfere
Speaker 5: them uh or might emulate. We just need to know
Speaker 5: more who else is studying this, and we need to
Speaker 5: know about knowledge and other in the other quarters, China
Speaker 5: or wherever Russia. We feared Russian science more than China
Speaker 5: at that time anyway, And even saying that this is
Speaker 5: not the first case of the other unidentified objects or phenomena.
Speaker 5: There's a history. Now, he ain't going to the history
Speaker 5: with me. He just said, do your research. I said,
Speaker 5: so you're telling me anyway, But the Navy says, I
Speaker 5: can't know. Yes, he said, yes, but probably you saw
Speaker 5: the original. My bet is that that part of the test,
Speaker 5: the video will have been scrubbed. Which wise, but and
Speaker 5: he repeated those Navy intelligence there are another They live
Speaker 5: in their own world. Sometimes they think they're even more
Speaker 5: powerful than me are, But do.
Speaker 4: They still live in their own world?
Speaker 7: Yes, that's what everybody says.
Speaker 4: There are a few key details of this story that
Speaker 4: fill in some gaps that Harold relayed to Pippa before
Speaker 4: he passed. Malmgram confirmed that the entire Bluegill shoot down
Speaker 4: was an attempt to down a UFO. Malmgram explicitly told
Speaker 4: this to Pippa, his daughter, and Jeffrey Krukshank. He also
Speaker 4: told this to Senate Intelligence staffer Kirk McConnell, who I interviewed.
Speaker 8: What Mamgren reported that he'd been told directly by Bissel
Speaker 8: is that we downed a UFO that was monitoring closely
Speaker 8: monitoring that test, and it tumbled into the ocean, and
Speaker 8: that the Navy picked it up.
Speaker 4: So the American military knew they could bait UFOs with
Speaker 4: nukes and destabilize their flight paths with EMPs. See EMPs
Speaker 4: disrupt local magnetic fields. It would even locally disrupt the
Speaker 4: magnetosphere of the Earth. If you're flying at incredible speeds
Speaker 4: in a UFO, you probably need to use some form
Speaker 4: of quantum sensing. This would allow you to use the
Speaker 4: magnetosphere of the Earth in order to navigate birds even
Speaker 4: do this, they use Avian cryptochromes to quantum sense the
Speaker 4: magnetic field of the Earth and navigate home. This form
Speaker 4: of precision sensing would be necessary in order to navigate
Speaker 4: a UFO, so when you disrupt the local magnetic field,
Speaker 4: you could cause a UFO to spin out, lose control,
Speaker 4: and drop out of the air. Also, UFO propulsion likely
Speaker 4: requires megavolt range electricity and extremely strong electric field strength
Speaker 4: over long periods of time, which would require a power
Speaker 4: source that far surpasses traditional fuel or batteries. I think
Speaker 4: UFOs have a nuclear propulsion source. If the X ray
Speaker 4: induced shockwave from the Bluegill payload would disrupt the plutonium
Speaker 4: pit of an incoming nuclear warhead, it would also probably
Speaker 4: disrupt the power source of a UFO. The second missing
Speaker 4: detail here is that when Harold was holding the UFO
Speaker 4: pieces Lawrence Geist had given him, they seemed to telepathically
Speaker 4: communicate with him. He heard words in his head when
Speaker 4: he felt the pieces. This is a very common trope
Speaker 4: in UFO world when it comes to people handling material firsthand.
Speaker 4: Malt Grim forgot the exact words, but he felt like
Speaker 4: they were important and that the material may have implanted
Speaker 4: ideas in his subconscious. He also apparently thought that this
Speaker 4: was a test that Lawrence Geiss.
Speaker 6: Had given him.
Speaker 4: He wanted to see if Harold would have this mental
Speaker 4: reaction to the pieces. Harold apparently passed. Once Harold passed
Speaker 4: Lawrence Geiss's test and realized there was far more to
Speaker 4: this taglong UFO phenomenon than met the eye, Malmgrim had
Speaker 4: clearly graduated from his role as the missile cost assessment guy.
Speaker 4: He needed to get fully read in. That's when he
Speaker 4: received a full briefing on other worldly technologies by Richard Bissel.
Speaker 4: Who is Richard Bissell.
Speaker 5: So a few months after of this series of episodes
Speaker 5: Missile Crisis Los Alamos, Richard Bissell called me up and said,
Speaker 5: I'd like to spend some time towarding you. Maybe Friday
Speaker 5: afternoons after work would be good. He said, sure. I
Speaker 5: knew who he was. I mean he was Deputy Director
Speaker 5: le c i A and he was in the news
Speaker 5: a lot because he had been the one who helped
Speaker 5: Strength Works developed the U two.
Speaker 4: An Area fifty one at the time was an atomic
Speaker 4: testing site, and he thought it would be a good
Speaker 4: idea to test the U two basically right next door.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so this, I mean, I knew he was at
Speaker 5: the center of all the scientific technology and stuff. I
Speaker 5: didn't know at that time. His ill portune was that
Speaker 5: he was in charge of the invaded Huban Bay of
Speaker 5: Page operation too. Anyway, you know, I knew he was
Speaker 5: somebody considerable knowledge and obviously strong enough to run a
Speaker 5: big part of the empire up CIA. So I said down.
Speaker 5: He brought a bottle of whisky out and said, we
Speaker 5: don't have to drink all of my miss He said,
Speaker 5: I'm telling everyone around you you were one of the
Speaker 5: risk kads. But I was told you were the youngest
Speaker 5: because you came in a little bit after the others,
Speaker 5: and also that most of them were four or five
Speaker 5: years older. But you were the star in terms of
Speaker 5: ability and the ability to work with the top level
Speaker 5: of people without fiction. In other words, when that i'm
Speaker 5: lifeis you know, smart ass? So said, you're almost certainly
Speaker 5: on a curve where you continue to be at that level.
Speaker 5: So there are things you need to know. And then
Speaker 5: he went into might have been But it was not
Speaker 5: only about but mean, it's still make hole in UFOs
Speaker 5: at that time, but it was about Cia. Operations worldwide
Speaker 5: become plaxty some times when the President and CI were
Speaker 5: not working in concert. But it happens when you have
Speaker 5: a big system like that, it develops the life.
Speaker 4: But so what did he say about UFOs and other
Speaker 4: world technology? And then what did he say about the
Speaker 4: CIA is the global nature of their operations?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, but went down something too. They were
Speaker 5: opposed to anything which threatened their control. And these unidentified
Speaker 5: UFOs we didn't have the up world yet they presented
Speaker 5: forces that were beyond CIA's knowledge or control, and they interfered,
Speaker 5: perhaps with what CIA was doing with private industry. There
Speaker 5: was a lot of interaction between Luck and Martin and
Speaker 5: CIA where.
Speaker 4: They would show up around specific atomic testing, or around
Speaker 4: specific technology development, or.
Speaker 5: Many types of technology development.
Speaker 4: I mean, so it's almost like the UFOs are more
Speaker 4: it's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to
Speaker 4: the tip of the spear as far as tech development
Speaker 4: at the heart of it. Yeah, which is if you
Speaker 4: read the Three Body Problem by you know this amazing
Speaker 4: you know Chinese science fiction trilogy.
Speaker 5: I show the movie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems like something like that is almost the case.
Speaker 4: According to Richard Bissel, Wow, yep. And so what does
Speaker 4: he say? So he briefs you on quote unquote other
Speaker 4: world technologies that to me belies almost human knowledge of
Speaker 4: these technologies. Not just like these things are randomly showing
Speaker 4: up when we're making advanced technology.
Speaker 5: This is real. These f we don't know n these
Speaker 5: phenomena also we don't know, but the Russians and Chinese
Speaker 5: and any anyone else knows not itself is threatening. No,
Speaker 5: at that time, China was not as threatening to us
Speaker 5: as Russia. We are uh, always overrated Russia in my judgment,
Speaker 5: and we underrated the Chinese obsession to focus in on
Speaker 5: something very specific, which was the technology race. And so
Speaker 5: but anyway, it just wanted me to know that there
Speaker 5: were all these conflicting how forces of power in play,
Speaker 5: and that they had influence on leadership in many countries,
Speaker 5: not just Washington. And it tends to run deep into
Speaker 5: local politics depending on where the interests were. No, he
Speaker 5: didn't mention Arkansas, but have you flighted back? I probably
Speaker 5: was on his mind.
Speaker 12: Why am I not on the front page of the
Speaker 12: paper at Ryan Airport or any other airport with a.
Speaker 2: Load of dope with a load of guns.
Speaker 4: Did Richard Bissell know what was going on all along,
Speaker 4: that the Bluegill test was actually always intended to be
Speaker 4: a directed energy based UFO shootdown. Well, tellingly, Harold told
Speaker 4: Pippa on his death bet and off air that the
Speaker 4: CIA and Atomic Energy Commission got the very idea of
Speaker 4: shooting down UFOs with directed energy from an extraterrestrial being
Speaker 4: that survived the Roswell crash in nineteen forty seven. This
Speaker 4: being was apparently the sole survivor of that crash. Harold
Speaker 4: even told Pippa that later in his career he saw
Speaker 4: the video of this creature being interviewed. And there's a
Speaker 4: direct link between the Bluegill Triple Prime tests and Star Wars,
Speaker 4: or the Strategic Defense initiative that later took place in
Speaker 4: the eighties. You see, the Bluegill Triple Prime tests inspired
Speaker 4: Edward Teller's X ray based Excalibur designs, which formed the
Speaker 4: basis of Reagan's strategic Defense initiative, popularly known as Star Wars.
Speaker 4: Star Wars involved a massive network of directed energy weapons
Speaker 4: for missile defense. It also involved satellite tracking an immaculate constellation,
Speaker 4: if you will, for UFO shootdowns and tracking. This of
Speaker 4: course begs the question, was star wars always dual use
Speaker 4: and intended for shooting down and quarantining UAP And if
Speaker 4: these very concepts came from the sole surviving being from
Speaker 4: the Roswell crash, it begs the very important question are
Speaker 4: we involved in some sort of bizarre extraterrestrial proxy war?
Speaker 4: Ultimately one can only speculate, but it is important to
Speaker 4: note that before he briefed Malmgren, Richard Bissel had to
Speaker 4: have known about all of this. Remember, at the time,
Speaker 4: he was deputy director of Plans for the entire CIA,
Speaker 4: and he would go on to become deputy director for
Speaker 4: the entire organization It's number two, so he was likely
Speaker 4: well aware of this interview of the surviving being at Roswell.
Speaker 4: Bissil also founded Area fifty one in nineteen fifty five,
Speaker 4: and he'd strategically placed it at the Nevada test site
Speaker 4: where hundreds of atomic tests were occurring in the early fifties,
Speaker 4: so we had to have known about the UFO nuclear connection.
Speaker 4: Bisil likely also understood the secret UFO related intentions of
Speaker 4: the Bluegill tests all along. But Harold goes deeper. He
Speaker 4: implies that Bissle knows about this other layer of reality,
Speaker 4: a form of sort of extraterrestrial exopolitics that needed to
Speaker 4: be managed by elements of the US government for decades.
Speaker 4: Do you think Richard Bissel sort of knew that you
Speaker 4: were You were sort of an heir to him in
Speaker 4: sort of a more spiritual sense or something.
Speaker 1: I'm thin, and he was looking for someone who was
Speaker 1: some how connection.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, connected to what.
Speaker 1: Whatever was happening with the world, the forces mm hmm.
Speaker 4: Have you looked have you looked for people like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I re about them.
Speaker 4: Yeah. What else did Richard Bissell tell you?
Speaker 5: He said, this didn't start last week. This has been
Speaker 5: going on. He mentioned in nineteen thirty three, and me, Genzo,
Speaker 5: he did, Yes.
Speaker 4: Richard Bissell mentioned the nineteen thirty three Yes, that's amazing exactly.
Speaker 4: That is such corroboration, because that is a highly conflicted,
Speaker 4: you know account.
Speaker 9: Nineteen thirty three was the first recovery in Europe in
Speaker 9: Magenta Italy.
Speaker 4: I fully trust David Grush, but that's amazing that there's
Speaker 4: some corroboration from back then.
Speaker 5: He mentioned it.
Speaker 9: Wow, Italian government moved it to a secure air base
Speaker 9: in Italy for the rest of kind of the fascist
Speaker 9: regime until nineteen forty four, nineteen forty five. And you
Speaker 9: know the pie is the twelve back channel that so
Speaker 9: that was involved. Yeah, and told the Americans what the
Speaker 9: Italians had and we ended up scooping it.
Speaker 5: So yeah, he said, this did not begin and I
Speaker 5: needed to know the background. How did it end up?
Speaker 5: The Truman transferred that that object in the steps getting
Speaker 5: there was arranged by Ellen Dallas. But that went back
Speaker 5: for Pepper.
Speaker 4: Mentioned and he said the steps that Alan Dallas helped
Speaker 4: with the crash retrieval.
Speaker 7: And remember Alan Dalles and so John Foster Dallas Alan
Speaker 7: Dallas are twins. And John Foster Dallas is running the
Speaker 7: os as the precursor to US intelligence out of Switzerland.
Speaker 7: And I asked, I said, Dad, why was he running
Speaker 7: it out of Switzerland? How that does that happen? And
Speaker 7: he said, well, everybody knew that he did it deliberately
Speaker 7: so that he would be beyond the reach of you.
Speaker 5: Mom, let me explain, after all, this only has been
Speaker 5: a few years back, when I was still an official
Speaker 5: in the Office of the Trade Representative. Well, it was
Speaker 5: the principle I was invited by. You know, Switzerland doesn't
Speaker 5: have any president the leaders revolves around the canton, the leaders,
Speaker 5: but whoever was the leader of that year. I visited
Speaker 5: and the government about several matters and they said, well
Speaker 5: your life to see the office of Allan Dulles when
Speaker 5: he lived here. So I said, I want to be functioning,
Speaker 5: beautiful apartment overlooking the river. And we got talking. I said,
Speaker 5: how do you explain why he chose to be here?
Speaker 5: He said, oh, that's simple. He told us when he
Speaker 5: got permissioned to maintain a very active office here that
Speaker 5: as long as he was in Switzerland, no matter Locke
Speaker 5: had reached him as just something he did that was
Speaker 5: immediately moral or otherwise in the United States. So he said,
Speaker 5: he was here all the time, and it was to
Speaker 5: allow him a free hand and to do the most
Speaker 5: terrible things that if needed. Okay, that's understandable. He was
Speaker 5: a freaky guy. Now, going back to nineteen thirty three,
Speaker 5: the relationship needs to be uncovered between England's father Angleton
Speaker 5: and the Knights of Malta. Wow, because the Knights of
Speaker 5: Malta said, there's long historical connection with the Vatican and
Speaker 5: indeed have this special diplomatics. Do you know you can
Speaker 5: be you can have an international passport for the night
Speaker 5: I forget to have. It's a something. It's a sovereign
Speaker 5: state right headingful of people, Yes, but it's all connection
Speaker 5: with the Beatian.
Speaker 4: According to multiple accounts, including UFO whistleblower David Grush, a
Speaker 4: disc like object measuring roughly ten to twelve meters in
Speaker 4: diameter came down near Magenta in Lombardy, Italy in June
Speaker 4: of nineteen thirty three.
Speaker 9: Nineteen thirty three was the first recovery in Europe.
Speaker 4: Under Benito Mussolini's fascist regime, a total media blackout was
Speaker 4: imposed throughout the Stefani news agency. Telegrams threatened severe penalties
Speaker 4: for any reporters who deviated from a government ordered cover
Speaker 4: story attributing the event to a meteor. Despite the censorship,
Speaker 4: a special investigative body known as Gabinetto or RS thirty
Speaker 4: three formed to study the craft, with high level figures
Speaker 4: such as Mussolini, air Marshal Italo Balbo and Nobel laureate
Speaker 4: and radio pioneer Marconi believed to have been involved. Testimonies
Speaker 4: suggest that the downcraft and possibly two recovered bodies were
Speaker 4: taken to the SIAI Marchetti private aerospace hangars for intensive analysis.
Speaker 4: This secret research group reportedly drew up a nine step
Speaker 4: protocol to manage the Magenta crash in any similar future incidents.
Speaker 4: The instructions included immediate site containment, arrests of all witnesses,
Speaker 4: and thorough disinformation campaigns to quell public attention. Sounds very
Speaker 4: similar to what happened in the United States after Roswell. Marconi,
Speaker 4: long fascinated by extraterrestrial possibilities, clashed with Mussolini's insistence that
Speaker 4: the subject must be of terrestrial origin. Some documents and
Speaker 4: later family confirmations indicate Marconi genuinely believed the craft could
Speaker 4: be non human. In the late nineteen thirties, Pope Pius
Speaker 4: the twelfth became aware of the Magenta retrieval, reportedly fearing
Speaker 4: that any recovered technology might fall into Nazi hands. Once
Speaker 4: Italy allied with Germany, through discrete channels, the Pope quietly
Speaker 4: informed the Allies about the craft's existence and storage location.
Speaker 4: This back channel intelligence set the stage for the Office
Speaker 4: of Strategic Services, America's premier wartime intelligence gathering program and
Speaker 4: the predecessor to the CIA in World War Two, to
Speaker 4: intervene in northern Italy as the war approached its end,
Speaker 4: working under a secret project called McGregor, OSS operatives targeted
Speaker 4: advanced axis technology, including the rumored crashed UFO.
Speaker 6: By nineteen forty five.
Speaker 4: The Americans had reportedly transferred the Italian UFO to Write
Speaker 4: Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio for further study.
Speaker 11: Right Patterson Air Force Base faith.
Speaker 4: In Ohio, many of the top Nazi scientists, as a
Speaker 4: part of Operation paper Clip that the Allies had exfiltrated,
Speaker 4: also made their way to Write Patterson to work on
Speaker 4: the Magenta craft. Malta, as a sovereign territory with diplomatic immunity,
Speaker 4: would be the perfect international guardians of UFO secrecy. Initially,
Speaker 4: when Harold said the Knights of Malta were deeply embedded
Speaker 4: in the UFO story, I had no idea what to think.
Speaker 4: It sounded like a plot line from a Dan Brown
Speaker 4: or Umberto Echo novel. Secret society associated with the Vatican
Speaker 4: and the sovereign state of Malta governs UFO secrecy.
Speaker 6: Go figure.
Speaker 4: But not only were Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton
Speaker 4: Knights of Malta. And remember James Jesus Angleton seemed to
Speaker 4: be responsible for a lot of counterintelligence around UFOs that
Speaker 4: came out from the fifties.
Speaker 6: To the eighties.
Speaker 4: But the bizarre Nights of Malta UFO connection runs even
Speaker 4: deeper after further research. Colonel Philip J. Corso, later famous
Speaker 4: for his claims regarding reverse engineering alien materials at the
Speaker 4: Pentagon in his book The Day After. Roswell served as
Speaker 4: a high ranking and intelligence officer in Italy during the
Speaker 4: post war period. In fact, he was the personal liaison
Speaker 4: to the future Pope. He was also a Knight of Malta.
Speaker 4: He was also a main figure in Operation paper Clip
Speaker 4: and helped create the quote unquote rat lines exfiltrating Nazi
Speaker 4: scientists and technology. In fact, many Nazi scientists, specifically specializing
Speaker 4: in exotic propulsion, made their way to write Patterson Air
Speaker 4: Force Base after World War Two. Perhaps the most powerful
Speaker 4: general at the time, General Douglas MacArthur, and his whole
Speaker 4: intelligence staff Knights of Malta. Many of his staff displayed
Speaker 4: an unusual interest in the possibility of a quote unquote
Speaker 4: interplanetary war, and they framed alien related eschatology in the
Speaker 4: exact same terms Corso did during a nineteen fifty five
Speaker 4: speech at West Point. General MacArthur told assembled cadets the
Speaker 4: next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of
Speaker 4: the Earth must someday make a common front against attack
Speaker 4: by people from other planets. Chief OSS member and another
Speaker 4: CIA founder wild Bill Donovan, who journalist Chris Sharp notes
Speaker 4: was likely not only involved in the Magenta crash retrieval,
Speaker 4: but in setting up original protocols for UFO crash retrievals,
Speaker 4: was also a Knight of Malta. Atomic energy director turned
Speaker 4: CIA director John McCone later CIA director Bill.
Speaker 6: Casey Knights of Malta.
Speaker 4: Remember that FDR was responsible for the communications with the
Speaker 4: Vatican about the crashed Magenta craft, while President Roosevelt's Vatican
Speaker 4: envoy Myron Taylor also a Knight of Malta. Maybe religious
Speaker 4: studies professor Diana Walsh Basalka, who has visited the Vatican
Speaker 4: archives and speaks with conviction that the Catholic Church knows
Speaker 4: more than meets the eye about UFOs, isn't so crazy
Speaker 4: after all.
Speaker 6: Maybe she's spot on, and.
Speaker 4: Look at the group that are supposedly engaging in UFO
Speaker 4: crash retrievals today, Jaysock or the Joint Special Operations Command
Speaker 4: According to journalist Seymour Hirsch, one of the modern heads
Speaker 4: of Jaysock, General Stanley mcriss Stall, and many of the
Speaker 4: members of Jasock themselves are all Knights of Malta. Does
Speaker 4: the Dewey currently work with Jaysock.
Speaker 16: We work with all of the security entities around the
Speaker 16: federal government.
Speaker 7: Did you guys work with Jaysock? Yes or no?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 4: We do, Okay, there are templars at the Vatican.
Speaker 5: It's a resident of the cruth or the myth whatever templars.
Speaker 4: But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have
Speaker 4: something to do with the UFO story as well.
Speaker 5: Well, well I'm saying is yeah they did because Angelson
Speaker 5: was there.
Speaker 4: So for context for the audience, James Jesus Angleton was
Speaker 4: sort of one of the original founders of the CIA.
Speaker 4: Dulls was sort of a mentor to him. He was
Speaker 4: a skull and bones kid and ends up in Italy
Speaker 4: and he's kind of this eccentric, debonair, interesting guy who
Speaker 4: is also really just good at conniving and lying. And so.
Speaker 4: Angleton's father, Hugh Angleton, was involved with the Knights of mal.
Speaker 5: A member.
Speaker 4: He was a member and so and then so he's wow.
Speaker 4: So he's involved in the Vatican, which makes it more
Speaker 4: likely that James Jesus Angleton probably had something to do
Speaker 4: with the retrieval of that UFO, the Magenta Crash, which
Speaker 4: was kept at the Vatican.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm specially letting, but no doubt in my mind.
Speaker 4: You're speculating. But there's so many connections. There's even a
Speaker 4: guy named John Warner the Fourth who is the grandson
Speaker 4: of Paul Mellon and the son of Senator John Warner,
Speaker 4: and he tells the story where he's three martinis in
Speaker 4: to a dinner or whatever with Paul Melon and Paul
Speaker 4: Mellon recalls the story. Paul Mellon's one of the founders
Speaker 4: of the CIA, and he's with Allen Dulls doing tech retrieval.
Speaker 4: In specifically, he says, I'm in Czechoslovakia and I'm standing
Speaker 4: on top of a saucer with Alan Dulles, and.
Speaker 17: My grandfather said, look, you know, we were in a facility,
Speaker 17: a hangar and we saw a German flying disc and
Speaker 17: I said, you know, oh, is that the one that
Speaker 17: was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines? And he
Speaker 17: laughed and he said.
Speaker 4: No, basically implying that it was like this anomalous object.
Speaker 4: And right there in Czechoslovakia and modern day Poland is
Speaker 4: this thing called kommler Stub where Hans Calmer, the most
Speaker 4: ruthless Nazi, was doing the most kind of black world
Speaker 4: technology projects, was rumored to be working on flying saucers.
Speaker 4: And there's this rumor of this thing called Degloca. And
Speaker 4: so you have the Hugh Angleton connection, but you also
Speaker 4: have Dullest and Paul Mellon standing on top of this saucer.
Speaker 4: And when the magenta object crashed, supposedly there was this
Speaker 4: partnership where Mussolini went to Hitler and was like, I
Speaker 4: don't really know what to do with this. Is this yours?
Speaker 4: And then he said, no, it's not ours, but we
Speaker 4: should work on it together. We should collaborate. So there's there.
Speaker 4: There are actually a lot of data points around this.
Speaker 4: You start to build this picture up.
Speaker 7: Said that the Italians even to this day are amongst
Speaker 7: the most innovatives in defense technology in the world.
Speaker 4: That's so interesting. So maybe that there's some inherited technology here.
Speaker 5: So let me say one fact for that is not
Speaker 5: well known in American when we look at the world.
Speaker 5: We say the second most important military force is the UK,
Speaker 5: and there especially that I have, but they have really
Speaker 5: dwindled in importance. And I didn't know this till recently.
Speaker 5: But I'm somewhat rather actually connected with the military world.
Speaker 5: I have a book coming out with essays on Jewish
Speaker 5: security of the last twenty five years. That's coming up soon,
Speaker 5: and Anybury no refees in their books. But but one
Speaker 5: of the people introducing the book was the chief from
Speaker 5: the Italian Air Force. I said, that's a little bit
Speaker 5: u and the editors said, no. In the in the
Speaker 5: Europe today the most important air force besides the US
Speaker 5: is the Italian Air Force. I have no idea.
Speaker 4: Really so they maybe they might be more advanced than
Speaker 4: meets the eye.
Speaker 5: There are more in measures than the rest of them
Speaker 5: in Europe.
Speaker 4: Interested this is news to me. But I think of
Speaker 4: Italian I guess the cars is being fast but unreliable.
Speaker 4: And then but the pot wow the air force.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, Northern Italy as world class engineering, German level engineering,
Speaker 7: and they have any fields. And I always thought it
Speaker 7: was very interesting that after the Second World War the
Speaker 7: Germans were prohibited from going into aircraft because the Luftwaffe
Speaker 7: had been such a threat and as a result, the
Speaker 7: Germans specialized in drones. And I got into drone technology
Speaker 7: about not quite ten years ago, and the Germans are
Speaker 7: very strong in that, and I started to also realize
Speaker 7: how strong Italian engineering. But I think this episode in
Speaker 7: history is it's not well and as well understood as
Speaker 7: it could be. And I just wonder was this part
Speaker 7: of what drove the decision to create what we now
Speaker 7: call the Axis. That because the Italians assumed that this
Speaker 7: super high tech thing must be German and that began
Speaker 7: their dialogue and as they aligned, that became the Axis.
Speaker 7: Then again back to George C. Marshall and the team
Speaker 7: that is basically cleaning up after the end of World
Speaker 7: War Two and their recognition that many people have knowledge
Speaker 7: of very advanced technologies they must be brought to the
Speaker 7: United States and that Operation paper Clip period, and again
Speaker 7: who's already there. It's all these cast of characters and
Speaker 7: where have they been based Italy?
Speaker 4: That's amazing, so fair Ageah, there's.
Speaker 7: No proof in that, but there's an interesting line of inquiry.
Speaker 4: But there's so much property And now we have Richard
Speaker 4: Bissell to add to the the dulles Paul Mellon story
Speaker 4: to add to David Grush's recent testimony. So we are
Speaker 4: building up this, you know, important, uh, corroborative narrative.
Speaker 5: I'm just mentioning in passing. You know this rushing stich.
Speaker 3: I have.
Speaker 5: It from a oh shop, there's a no it's saying hard.
Speaker 5: But I was told it was Paul Mellan's working stick.
Speaker 6: No way, that's so interesting.
Speaker 4: What do you How'd you end up with that?
Speaker 7: They live in the same part of Virginia?
Speaker 5: Okay, what I knew? I didn't know Paul Mellan, but
Speaker 5: I knew all the people around him yeap, including his
Speaker 5: wife how how oh, and his his personal I called him,
Speaker 5: ran the fire side for him, and ran took care
Speaker 5: of the horses, and you know, he had race horses everything.
Speaker 5: That guy became my host palamn. So I heard all
Speaker 5: the stories about Paul Mellon. So I didn't meet Paul Mellan,
Speaker 5: but I know more about his life than you bel imagine,
Speaker 5: including all his youl friends. Oh gosh, but I have
Speaker 5: his working stick.
Speaker 4: That's so interesting. I kind of feel like we should
Speaker 4: put it in the shot.
Speaker 5: Or it was sent to me as part of my mission.
Speaker 5: You know, I still don't know my purpose.
Speaker 4: And so what what do you think the Knights of
Speaker 4: Malta play some sort of role in UFOs? And what
Speaker 4: do you think their role is?
Speaker 5: Now you're getting into the heart of the resident that
Speaker 5: organization that still exists. What form does it take now?
Speaker 5: I have no idea, but they still have the sovereign
Speaker 5: state identity?
Speaker 4: Do you think it goes back to the original templars?
Speaker 5: I don't know, okay, but how did they get the
Speaker 5: sovereign state? The Vatican must have organized it.
Speaker 4: They seem to have kind of a lot of top
Speaker 4: level business leaders and politicians involved in the Knights of Malta, that's.
Speaker 5: Right, so something. Yes, it's a see few different society.
Speaker 5: I mean, there are all these secret societies and so
Speaker 5: many things over the years have been attributed to the
Speaker 5: Council and Foreign Relations. Yes, I was a member of
Speaker 5: the Council for I don't know fifty years. I dropped
Speaker 5: out recently because they wanted me to keep sending them
Speaker 5: large amounts of money. I thought, yeah, you know, I've
Speaker 5: done my I paid my dues. But when you get
Speaker 5: back for the Council power relations, then you dig deeper. Man,
Speaker 5: it wasn't really them. It was some of them select
Speaker 5: group through Brown Brothers Harmon that set up CIA. You know,
Speaker 5: the different groups did different things and some of the
Speaker 5: great financial figures been involved with some but not others.
Speaker 5: It's not very different from the w e F and
Speaker 5: in Switzerland and differing group.
Speaker 4: But there's a Council Foreign Relations Nights of Malta connection.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 5: I would say there's some overlocking membership, but no no
Speaker 5: connection anyway, how some poor relations has been diluted and
Speaker 5: changed since the days of the Second World War and
Speaker 5: the Cold War. It's now much more diverse and much
Speaker 5: more defensive. Who who's ever in power in the right house?
Speaker 5: I don't know what they're going to do with Crumb,
Speaker 5: but they have been. They've been sort of swept a
Speaker 5: lorm but progressive Democrats, right, So this is you just
Speaker 5: brought this in. This is Paul Mellon walking stick that
Speaker 5: you ended up with. I can't verify, but that's why
Speaker 5: I was told.
Speaker 4: What does it represent anything? It looks very unique.
Speaker 5: Well, he had a lot of power, so.
Speaker 4: That was bestowed upon you. What else? What else did
Speaker 4: did Richard Bissell tell you?
Speaker 5: Well? I mean I think I've explained that in essence,
Speaker 5: there are a multiplicity of powers in play at any moment,
Speaker 5: and around presidents they have certain powers, but they are
Speaker 5: constrained by these other powers. And among them, the intelligence
Speaker 5: community is very powerful because it has found way to
Speaker 5: fund itself and to multiply itself. So you can't look
Speaker 5: at the budget and say that's what it is. Is
Speaker 5: it offerings businesses legitimate and legitimate.
Speaker 4: It's sort of this gangly octopus. It's impossible to really
Speaker 4: and capture.
Speaker 5: And so the Russians do this too, and they even
Speaker 5: do it in overt ways. They did with the this
Speaker 5: group that the leader was assassinated, the.
Speaker 4: Wagner gu Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean they do that's over. They do it, not over.
Speaker 5: The Chinese are everywhere doing four kinds of stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 5: even in Manhattan.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So when when you weigh actions, you have to take
Speaker 5: into account what you see and what you don't see,
Speaker 5: the unseen enemies. The I should have been aware of
Speaker 5: that when I that was some of these comments on
Speaker 5: yours stumbled injured.
Speaker 4: Haven't you have no intention of Have you gotten any
Speaker 4: backlash because you've been saying some remarkable things on Twitter?
Speaker 7: Usually get it dad dropped something on Twitter and suddenly
Speaker 7: my inbox is full, like full, what people saying? You know,
Speaker 7: your dad is breaking the internet?
Speaker 4: But that seems positive. It's mostly positive.
Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: She holds me from some bar away place, braces me
Speaker 5: up in the moon's different hours, and don you blew
Speaker 5: up the internet.
Speaker 7: I actually go bysel leave you alone for five minutes.
Speaker 11: Break.
Speaker 5: I carefully crapped in some backing up the language that
Speaker 5: I was not directly involved with UAP research.
Speaker 4: You said to read my words carefully.
Speaker 5: Nice now if if you're read them carefully, I was not.
Speaker 5: I was saying I was not directly to look at
Speaker 5: that it was, But I didn't say that I wasn't
Speaker 5: aware of it. Yeah, and I knew that eventually this
Speaker 5: stuff will come out and say, yeah, I knew about that,
Speaker 5: but I use the words to make it. I was
Speaker 5: backing your way speculation, but I didn't do that. The
Speaker 5: Roods didn't suggest I was speculating.
Speaker 4: I think this is an issue sometimes with people who
Speaker 4: are high up in government who want to disclose certain
Speaker 4: things but don't want to break any sort of relationships
Speaker 4: they have, or oaths they've sworn, or clearances they have
Speaker 4: where you'll hear David Grush or something spect he'll say,
Speaker 4: this is open source, this is a personal story, and
Speaker 4: I'll have to caveat constantly with that. And so if
Speaker 4: you're an average person, you just immediately your skeptical trigger
Speaker 4: goes off. But in fact he's trying to do you
Speaker 4: a service and saying, look at this, this is open source.
Speaker 4: So I just don't want to end up, you know,
Speaker 4: under the gun here because I don't want to. I
Speaker 4: don't want to, you know, end up in jail. You're
Speaker 4: giving your enemies fodder.
Speaker 7: The thing to keep in mind, and as in the
Speaker 7: research I've done too, is what you find is a
Speaker 7: lot of this cast of characters, including James Jesus Angleton,
Speaker 7: who went on to become the key person at the CIA.
Speaker 7: They all seem to have been part of General George C.
Speaker 7: Marshall's team at the end of the Second World War.
Speaker 7: They are all involved with the Marshall plans somehow or another,
Speaker 7: including Kennedy and Forrestall for a period are part of that,
Speaker 7: and so difficult to prove, but strange that they all
Speaker 7: seem to be connected to this subject.
Speaker 4: Well, Forestall's supposedly on this Majestic twelve. Who knows how
Speaker 4: much of the Majestic twelve is true, but this sort
Speaker 4: of you know, elite military and intelligence advisory board for
Speaker 4: Truman and Eisenhower and then George Marshall. Also there's this
Speaker 4: thing called the Battle of Los Angeles in nineteen forty
Speaker 4: two where UFO shows up and like flies down the
Speaker 4: coast and George Marshall was brief to that and so
Speaker 4: very interesting. Okay, so you have and then the other
Speaker 4: connections I think that are important to make with the
Speaker 4: Marshall plan is that was kind of immediately after these
Speaker 4: tech retrieval programs in Europe. So the Nazis had all
Speaker 4: this advanced technology and you had Tychom and ASOS. One
Speaker 4: was you know, signals intelligence, the other was you know,
Speaker 4: atomic intelligence, and it was trying to retrieve their most
Speaker 4: exotic technology. And if there was anything you know, involving
Speaker 4: UFOs there that would sort of be bound up in it.
Speaker 5: Spread Marhington. It was an attorney named Tom Farmer, and
Speaker 5: Tom and I played tennis together, you know. But it
Speaker 5: turned out Tom had been General Counsel of CIA.
Speaker 7: And he'd been at again at with the guys during
Speaker 7: the Marshall plant right.
Speaker 5: Wow, I was gonna say. It turned out he was
Speaker 5: involved in dr in the project called paper Flip. Uh huh,
Speaker 5: picking Germans and a reason why I was he s
Speaker 5: he was born in Berlin of a father who was
Speaker 5: a US diplomat, but he spoke German fluently. Mm So
Speaker 5: now I it never known on me when I first
Speaker 5: when it was my friend that started asking you about
Speaker 5: paper clip. But I learned later that he knew everything.
Speaker 5: M he was. He was one of the people that
Speaker 5: he yesked for him, know for him.
Speaker 4: You know, do you believe that advanced technology has benefited
Speaker 4: from retrieved unidentified aerial objects? So this would be like
Speaker 4: the Philip Corso day after Oswell narrative.
Speaker 5: The answer I would have for you is yes in
Speaker 5: two ways. In one way, we have learned that some
Speaker 5: types of propulsion, for example, exists that we never never envisaged,
Speaker 5: never conceived. The second way is that they have revealed
Speaker 5: a higher level of knowledge than anything we have on Earth,
Speaker 5: and we don't control it now only recently even where
Speaker 5: is it coming from?
Speaker 13: Me?
Speaker 5: You know, we have this new telescope looking up where
Speaker 5: are they? But then we have one revelation by the
Speaker 5: oceanographer in the last few days who says they are
Speaker 5: not China, they are not in the US, they are
Speaker 5: not extraterrestrial, meaning they're either here already under the water
Speaker 5: or subterranean, that's where they are.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 7: Then David Grosh, he says, talks about is it interdimensional? Yes,
Speaker 7: there suddenly and one sort of wonders like is this semantics?
Speaker 7: Like if you ask officially are there extraterrestrials, the answer
Speaker 7: is no, because extraterrestrial means off planet, but it doesn't
Speaker 7: include if it interdimensional, if it's ocean based. Are we
Speaker 7: actually all talking at cross purposes?
Speaker 4: Well, it's the reason the All Domain Anomalist you know
Speaker 4: research office, which is headed up by Kirkpatrick, who has
Speaker 4: all these sort of you know, when we should get
Speaker 4: into the the atomic ties to the UFO question. He
Speaker 4: has all, you know, this whole history and you know
Speaker 4: atomic research. He was at Oakridge and he always rests
Speaker 4: on we have no hard evidence of extraterrestrial life. But
Speaker 4: of course, you know, you have these anomalous things, you
Speaker 4: haven't done a proper analysis on them, you don't know
Speaker 4: what they are, you haven't classified them, and so you
Speaker 4: just you use that's like this straw Manning way of
Speaker 4: you know, explaining the thing away, and for an average
Speaker 4: person who's not really into the topic, you go, oh,
Speaker 4: this official is saying that there's no aug Yeah, but
Speaker 4: it's it's always extraterrestrial. So is there was there anything
Speaker 4: else that Richard Bissell told you. I hate to, you know,
Speaker 4: harp on that one interaction, but it just it's so fast.
Speaker 4: You have this guy who's number two at the S.
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's set up Area fifty one and he's briefing
Speaker 4: you on other world technologies. Does he say anything else?
Speaker 2: Well, he.
Speaker 5: Didn't admit to or talk about bad things that had happened.
Speaker 5: He didn't want to get into a discussion about the
Speaker 5: Bay of Page, and he didn't raise incidents where we
Speaker 5: have overturned governments. Somehow he avoided that stuff. But I
Speaker 5: think most of it was about if you work at
Speaker 5: the leadership level, whether you're a leader or guid to
Speaker 5: a leader, you've got to keep it in play in
Speaker 5: their minds. The conflicting forces, and a lot of these
Speaker 5: forces are not any legal who has authority over what.
Speaker 5: You can't do A diagram that is meaningful for the
Speaker 5: entire US government because a lot of it is other
Speaker 5: power networks. Rather it's Michael Turner who's been I mean
Speaker 5: he was a lynchpin for three companies at least, and
Speaker 5: hadn't you know? He blocked everything suddenly. It's very unusual
Speaker 5: someone with that much power. Usually you have to buy
Speaker 5: them off. You give them something else more important. You
Speaker 5: promote them. Yeah. Someone asked me a months, what's the
Speaker 5: most effective brain to get rid of a major enemy?
Speaker 5: I see, you promote them, right, give him something more
Speaker 5: visible where the ego can be passifying. I did it
Speaker 5: more than months.
Speaker 4: You don't want that, that's funny. You don't want people yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: You don't want them licking their wings. You'd rather have
Speaker 4: them happy and not focused on whatever they were focused on.
Speaker 5: I've never been publicly pergnacious, but there were times, well
Speaker 5: I think people had breakfast with one member of the
Speaker 5: Congress at one time she told me I have breakfast
Speaker 5: with him, and I asked him, how is it Dad
Speaker 5: has so much power but he has no enemies. People
Speaker 5: in power have so many enemies. And you said, the
Speaker 5: only thing you would say is the rumor is none survived.
Speaker 5: So whether that's true or not, I closed them in
Speaker 5: that rumor. I told everybody that's the rumor. Don't ask me. Yeah,
Speaker 5: everybody very.
Speaker 7: Rud But I think the key here is it's not
Speaker 7: so much what do Richard Bissel say directly to dat,
Speaker 7: although that has immense value. It's important to capture this
Speaker 7: for posterity, but it's also an invitation. You are now
Speaker 7: part of a network of people. It will be known
Speaker 7: that you've been blessed. It will be known not just
Speaker 7: in our government, it will be known in other governments.
Speaker 7: It will be known by the Russians. And that network
Speaker 7: operates for the whole of your life.
Speaker 5: There are different sources of information about how communication between
Speaker 5: JFK and whose Shop is established now for the average
Speaker 5: human in the world in them by say, think of
Speaker 5: the boone but number one, whose shop represented sense of familie.
Speaker 5: If you were really gonna communicate with the Central Committee,
Speaker 5: you would use to bringing the ambassador who had a
Speaker 5: direct line, so he would know so if he if
Speaker 5: he didn't serve, I think he may have served us,
Speaker 5: but we don't know. He didn't disclose. But I know
Speaker 5: you bring I can tell you about that later. But
Speaker 5: I mean he came to know me. I suld that.
Speaker 5: But but.
Speaker 4: The American ambassador was that Walter Stossel.
Speaker 2: Or he.
Speaker 5: Didn't matter him doing anything that mattered was do Brain
Speaker 5: was number one power and communication with Moscow.
Speaker 7: But but that's there was the official channels. But there
Speaker 7: seems that they were also unofficial channels.
Speaker 5: Well I had to be, and.
Speaker 7: One of them was it seems Norman Cousins, who was
Speaker 7: against nuclear weapons and somehow was able to pass letters
Speaker 7: back and forth that reached Christie.
Speaker 5: I'm trying to think back. I haven't talked about this before.
Speaker 5: My first encounter with Dr Brenan. As I said, he
Speaker 5: arrived in sixty two a phenomenon unusual member of the
Speaker 5: Central Committee. And I was attending some months after this
Speaker 5: in sixty three and went to one of these Washington galas,
Speaker 5: you know, the White House Pesco Roast of the President,
Speaker 5: one of those we have those events and when you're inviting,
Speaker 5: you get a seat with the names Hard. You don't
Speaker 5: sit where you want, you sit where your name Hard is.
Speaker 5: If I sat down, this distinguished looking gentleman sat next
Speaker 5: to me and said, Hi, I'm Helmm and he said, yes,
Speaker 5: I know you. I am Ambassador Dobin. So all my
Speaker 5: alarms were known. That's not accidental. He chose to sit there.
Speaker 5: I'm sure, so I'll have to be careful. And he
Speaker 5: just chatted a friendly way. Your name is well known
Speaker 5: in Russia, long before you're in at these heavy levels
Speaker 5: of decision making. I said, why is that? He said,
Speaker 5: you're you are named after your anem whose name is
Speaker 5: identical to mine. He said he was really famous as
Speaker 5: a chess player, especially among all the security people who
Speaker 5: were nuts about in kenji Be and others about chess.
Speaker 5: Who was a chess champion them? So and he played
Speaker 5: many Russians and oh, I said so. He said, you
Speaker 5: identified as the progeny of that herald Manden, which in
Speaker 5: our way of thinking is what's good bloodlines. And so
Speaker 5: he chatted about that and how heming to Washington was
Speaker 5: surprised for me. He said, right, we have landed at
Speaker 5: the center of everything. I said, yeah, I'm surprised. They
Speaker 5: said yeah, he said, I gather you were in there
Speaker 5: with the generals. I said, how would you know that?
Speaker 5: He said, our system is far more thorough. You should
Speaker 5: be aware of them, and you might imagine. I said, yeah,
Speaker 5: you didn't ask me about what took place, except to say,
Speaker 5: you emerged as someone who was able to talk down
Speaker 5: the most belligerent American military official of all the time
Speaker 5: about time anyway, And so he said that made you
Speaker 5: of interest. How did you do that? Well? Thank you
Speaker 5: a good chest player? How did you win? And so
Speaker 5: later we had these encounters. I don't know, once a
Speaker 5: year or unplanned. Here was found me a subuta and
Speaker 5: he didn't ask I have never thought about this. He
Speaker 5: didn't ask you one time? Why is everyone so excited
Speaker 5: about and identified playing objects? Really? He just innocently, It
Speaker 5: wasn't kind of pumplished, intelligensided me about anything specific. He
Speaker 5: was very careful. I said, because it's something we don't control.
Speaker 5: It's quite simple. Whatever it is, we feel threatened because
Speaker 5: we only feel safe when we are in total control.
Speaker 5: He said, nations, I've never in to control. There are
Speaker 5: always any expected challenges. I said, yeah, but tell that
Speaker 5: to somebody in Washington, would do? I mean, they are
Speaker 5: not students of history in Washington. You know the emergence
Speaker 5: of new threats. It's not something easily absorbed. It's not
Speaker 5: our culture, either triumphant or not. And wringing the second
Speaker 5: order made us feel really superior.
Speaker 2: So he's.
Speaker 5: He said there's something there. Remember he said that is
Speaker 5: dividing your country, but maybe could unify other two countries.
Speaker 3: MM.
Speaker 5: That's the way he said.
Speaker 4: And this is about the UFO subject.
Speaker 7: So extraordinary.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's probably I think he was looking for me
Speaker 5: to say something. But I was not previous to those
Speaker 5: that is between JFK and Crusia.
Speaker 4: And there are rumors that JFK wanted to do a
Speaker 4: joint space program with the Soviets around this. Sun used
Speaker 4: the UFO thing as kind of a unifying you know,
Speaker 4: rallying cry or something.
Speaker 5: But he would prime number one reason that's not being
Speaker 5: disguided by these events that think to think it might
Speaker 5: be US versus them, that this is not Russia or
Speaker 5: the US. So we need an early runing system. Those
Speaker 5: things that you see are not hours alright, that makes sense.
Speaker 5: How it extended beyond there to the other idea, maybe
Speaker 5: we should work together.
Speaker 3: MM.
Speaker 5: That drop put the swords down and lost him up
Speaker 5: of the way to develop our futures without being more
Speaker 5: of the enemies. M Now that switch, my understanding was
Speaker 5: definitely in Kennedy's mind. And so did did I see
Speaker 5: any No? No, I didn't, but some people did. The
Speaker 5: fact that he learned he expressed verbally to a number
Speaker 5: of the senior people his desire to share our knowledge
Speaker 5: of UFOs would Russiam cause alarm mm among some officials
Speaker 5: in Russians. Who's so many? Definitely, But that was one
Speaker 5: of the many things on JFK and he was fighting
Speaker 5: about some but it seemed to alone people that CIA
Speaker 5: or some people, CIA is a big organization.
Speaker 4: There is this letter that was Foyd used the Freedom
Speaker 4: of Information Act to you know, to get out of
Speaker 4: the government in two thousand and five, and it's of
Speaker 4: controversial provenance, so we should coveyat that to the audience.
Speaker 4: But it's a letter from JFK to acting CIA director
Speaker 4: John mccoon after he had fired Dulles, and he's basically saying,
Speaker 4: we need to coordinate. I need all of the data
Speaker 4: on quote unquote unknowns in in sensitive airspace from NASA
Speaker 4: because we need to coordinate better with the Russians so
Speaker 4: they don't mistake these unknowns as acts of American aggression.
Speaker 4: That he's basically saying, I need all the UFO data
Speaker 4: so I can better coordinate with the Russians and we
Speaker 4: don't end up in you know, some horrible you know,
Speaker 4: bomb out scenario the UFOs.
Speaker 7: How do we deconflict? Can we create a regime for
Speaker 7: deconflictions soday? We don't inadvertently fire And it's not the
Speaker 7: Russians vice versa.
Speaker 4: And in the nineteen seventy one Salt Treaty, it's written
Speaker 4: into it. It's that sort of same language is written
Speaker 4: in it.
Speaker 7: It's in there.
Speaker 4: And so so do we think that this letter might
Speaker 4: be real? This two thousand and five for you letter?
Speaker 4: That's amazing. Do you think that UFOs played any sort
Speaker 4: of part in JFK's death?
Speaker 5: This is your speculation, But do I think so? Yes?
Speaker 5: I think it was probably the number one issue.
Speaker 4: Why do you think that?
Speaker 5: Because from what I have read, not but I know,
Speaker 5: because I don't know anything about the actual documents sent
Speaker 5: by JFKA to RuSHA. But what I've read is that
Speaker 5: he run and to talk openly about the UAP phenomena,
Speaker 5: and the basis from why don't we stopped fighting with
Speaker 5: each other, enjoying forces with and make peace?
Speaker 7: And he also wanted to reduce the nuclear arsenal on
Speaker 7: both sides. Yes, and that was also a threatened challenge.
Speaker 4: To the community and specifically hated that viace of each
Speaker 4: China because it was like, if we didn't have nukes,
Speaker 4: they would outman us.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was worried about numbers.
Speaker 4: So you think so you think maybe in some of
Speaker 4: the correspondence it was let's worked together on the non
Speaker 4: human intelligence or alien issue. It's it's funny Douglas Caddy,
Speaker 4: who is the lawyer of Howard Hunt. Howard Hunts this
Speaker 4: you know, known CI, a longtime spook who shows up
Speaker 4: in all sorts of you know, he's like the Janitor
Speaker 4: and Watergate or whatever. And uh and he, Douglas Caddy says,
Speaker 4: you know, I kept asking Howard Hunt, you know, what
Speaker 4: was the JFK murder actually about? And he kept giving
Speaker 4: these kind of deflection answers, and then finally he says,
Speaker 4: it was about the alien presence.
Speaker 5: I think it was.
Speaker 4: That's fascinating.
Speaker 5: I think jf he fully knew all about UFOs long
Speaker 5: before he became Trudglent.
Speaker 4: What gives you conviction and that because.
Speaker 5: He rose in the intelligence for a while, he learned
Speaker 5: most of it from Forrestal.
Speaker 4: He wasn't an intelligence and forrestaw his Secretary of the
Speaker 4: Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and for Us fully briefed them and talked about it,
Speaker 5: and he talks about you'll have to do the history,
Speaker 5: but he was fully briefed by Forrest All.
Speaker 4: How do we know Forrestalt knew about UFOs because there
Speaker 4: are tons of rumors he, you know, managed Admiral Bird
Speaker 4: who engaged in Operation High Jumps, you know, bringing probably
Speaker 4: like seventy or so ships and thirty three I think,
Speaker 4: you know, airplanes and almost five thousand men down the
Speaker 4: coast of Argentina and towards Antarctica, and they reportedly encounter
Speaker 4: all these flying saucers that are shooting at them with lasers.
Speaker 4: But other than that, do we have any real, you know,
Speaker 4: evidence that forest All knew about UFOs.
Speaker 5: You have to do more research. I my research, which
Speaker 5: tends to be scattered in until recently, I haven't tried
Speaker 5: to organize it. But I've found several references to Barstol
Speaker 5: for him joining to Borsaw with questions and getting answers.
Speaker 4: Interesting. Well, you know, JFK was also extremely interested in
Speaker 4: astrophysics at Harvard and was close with Don Menzel, who
Speaker 4: was this famous UFO de Bunker, but who admitted to
Speaker 4: JFK that he held some of the deepest, you know,
Speaker 4: clearances across the board CEA and s A and Navy,
Speaker 4: and so maybe there's some sort of connection there. But
Speaker 4: did you ever speak to JFK about UFOs directly? No?
Speaker 5: No, My interaction with JFK and Bobby was Bury's limits.
Speaker 5: But I was somehow part of them clean because Sarrage Schreiber,
Speaker 5: the brother in law, was the job. He talks to
Speaker 5: me all the time. Sarage Schreiber proposed me for several
Speaker 5: different jobs, and I defined each one, but I was
Speaker 5: accepted in a circular person. But Bobby and Tinny, they
Speaker 5: were consumed with events that seemed to be coming at
Speaker 5: them faster and faster. If I look back at top management,
Speaker 5: I would have to say they were operating without inadequate
Speaker 5: buffer system. So I'm my guess is they were overloaded
Speaker 5: with stuff and didn't have a way of well, neither
Speaker 5: one of them. When you were centered having small staff,
Speaker 5: but you know, you don't you're operating on your own.
Speaker 5: You don't know how to run apparatus. Someone like L B. J.
Speaker 5: Came in, he w he ran the whole damn saint,
Speaker 5: you know, some multitude of people at no levels. But
Speaker 5: JFF came in but well never the naval experience, but
Speaker 5: seemed to be busy with Forestall.
Speaker 4: And do you think Forrestall's death had anything to do
Speaker 4: with the UFO's So Forrestall was sort of pushed out
Speaker 4: of his position at Secretary of Defense and he was
Speaker 4: sort of betting on George Dewey against Truman, and then
Speaker 4: he ends up in this Navy hospital Bethesda, Maryland, and
Speaker 4: he sort of you know, gets killed by gravity quote
Speaker 4: unquote it so he's like mid writing some Sophocles poem.
Speaker 4: I think his brother, his brother, HARRYS. Forestall had met
Speaker 4: with him the day before, said he was totally obscene
Speaker 4: sound mind.
Speaker 5: True, and window didn't seem to be opening boom.
Speaker 4: That's right. That was the other thing. Yeah, And it
Speaker 4: was like his bathrobe was like tied to the The
Speaker 4: whole thing made no sense. See do you think that
Speaker 4: had anything to do with an interest in the UFO subject?
Speaker 5: Probably? Wow, I'm not going to speculate.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And so, but so after JFK and all these guys,
Speaker 4: George mc bundy, all this top eights are there, go
Speaker 4: to los Alamos. They're presumably given the same sort of
Speaker 4: briefing that you got. Do you think he then takes
Speaker 4: an increased interest in UFOs at all. Yes, And what
Speaker 4: makes you think that?
Speaker 5: I think JFK somehow so this moment to make real peace.
Speaker 5: We were worried about China about that moment, but we
Speaker 5: in the Soviets just stop fighting, joined forces, ex flight,
Speaker 5: let me know together and dealing with this first that
Speaker 5: we don't understand.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there somehow in.
Speaker 5: The exchange during the crisis, and so there were commune
Speaker 5: educations with throw at Chef. We don't know every word.
Speaker 5: Maybe someone is recorded. Some of it may have been
Speaker 5: through the brim who may have used his lines. I mean,
Speaker 5: he had his method of communication that was theoretically you
Speaker 5: couldn't impregnate a problem. I've seen him establish a working discussion, true, true, guys.
Speaker 4: And that's that's a thread that recurs occasionally. Actually, Gorbachev
Speaker 4: was being interviewed by Charlie Rose, and Charlie is saying,
Speaker 4: you know, it's talking about you know, you talk to
Speaker 4: me about your correspondence with Reagan, and Gorbachev goes in
Speaker 4: a really weird direction that nobody expects, and he says, well,
Speaker 4: one time, we're sitting there, you know. Reagan turns to
Speaker 4: him and he whispers.
Speaker 18: He says, if the United States were attacked by someone
Speaker 18: from outer space, would you help us?
Speaker 15: I said, no doubt about it.
Speaker 16: He said, we too.
Speaker 7: So that's interesting right now, in modern times, we are
Speaker 7: clearly shooting at these things. The week of the Chinese balloon,
Speaker 7: there were three other unidentified objects that the military said
Speaker 7: they shot down. And so here's just a very profound
Speaker 7: question if this represents higher intelligence or even just intelligence,
Speaker 7: let alone higher intelligence. He's shooting at it the right
Speaker 7: way to open the conversation. Number one, Number two, generally speaking,
Speaker 7: you're not supposed to shoot it stuff if you don't
Speaker 7: know what it is. And so are we locked into
Speaker 7: a kind of nineteen fifties thinking about this thing because
Speaker 7: it's so secret, it's so compartmentalized, it's so dangerous to
Speaker 7: national security that no one can even really discuss this.
Speaker 7: And are we missing something quite profound because we won't
Speaker 7: even ask the question, why are we shooting at something
Speaker 7: that we don't understand and might represent intelligence of some kind.
Speaker 4: Maybe they're sort of way to you know, there's one
Speaker 4: of my favorite quotes eat in Philpots. It's like the
Speaker 4: world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our
Speaker 4: wits to get sharper totally. And there's something about this
Speaker 4: bi directional you know, if we ascend to a certain level,
Speaker 4: maybe we can have communion with these things, but it
Speaker 4: doesn't really make sense for them to show themselves to
Speaker 4: us until then.
Speaker 7: Again, regardless of whether it is real, since we can't
Speaker 7: identify it, what I find again interesting to observe is
Speaker 7: a level of fear that exists, and particularly in that
Speaker 7: official circles, in amongst militaries, because of the lack of control,
Speaker 7: that it must be dangerous, it must be a threat.
Speaker 7: And you will often hear the discussion of there's this
Speaker 7: thing in our airspace. I'm like, what if we're in
Speaker 7: it's airspace?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Right, It's just a creative way of thinking, what's the
Speaker 7: definition of airspace? In a world where we have a
Speaker 7: jamis Web telescope that is literally millions of miles away,
Speaker 7: we're probably in a lot of other airspaces that we
Speaker 7: can't even identify. So it's just, again, given the level
Speaker 7: of scientific and technological advancement that we humanity are capable
Speaker 7: of we are sending drones millions of miles away, why
Speaker 7: are we surprised if we have something here as well?
Speaker 7: And so it's the way you begin the thought process
Speaker 7: on this. I fear we're stuck in this mental lockdown
Speaker 7: that made sense in nineteen fifty, but it doesn't make
Speaker 7: sense in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 4: It really doesn't doesn't even make sense for a national
Speaker 4: security standpoint, especially from the primary lens through which we
Speaker 4: see this, but it is an important lens, and it
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly if you have this over
Speaker 4: compartmentalization and Cold War secrecy, where you have these aerospace
Speaker 4: prime contractors that were sent to do this so you
Speaker 4: couldn't use the Freedom of Information Act, or you wouldn't
Speaker 4: have civilian oversight or whatever, plusable deniability, deniability, and then
Speaker 4: you have constant compartmentalizations. The left hands not talking to
Speaker 4: the right. You're not getting the proper coordination on the
Speaker 4: most advanced and exciting and interesting R and D on the.
Speaker 7: I would go a bit further, and again I have
Speaker 7: talked a lot about this. There's another layer of this problem,
Speaker 7: and that is China, Russia, India. They never had what
Speaker 7: we would call a Cartesian revolution, meaning in the West,
Speaker 7: the United States, and Europe, after Renee Descartes, the philosopher
Speaker 7: basically split apart the scientific from the mystical, the mysterious,
Speaker 7: the religious, the belief systems. And we continue to this
Speaker 7: day to have this split. And so therefore you can't
Speaker 7: study this stuff because if it's not repeatable, it's not
Speaker 7: subject to scientific analyzes, because that's all about repeatable repeatability.
Speaker 7: But the rest of the world didn't have this split,
Speaker 7: and they still think holistically, and you can have mystical
Speaker 7: happenings with scientific findings, and that is not contradictory in China,
Speaker 7: in Russia, in India, and across Africa. So the question
Speaker 7: today is is China may be in collaboration with Russia
Speaker 7: making more progress because they don't have this mental hang up.
Speaker 16: If you wanted to study certain kinds of things related
Speaker 16: to what's called esp in the United States, you had
Speaker 16: to hide it very carefully because you were crazy and
Speaker 16: the government didn't want your people to thunk their supporting
Speaker 16: crazy stuff. But if you wanted to do the work
Speaker 16: in Russia, go right ahead, fine, here's your money, because
Speaker 16: they're not caught in the religion that says it's not possible.
Speaker 7: That's an interesting question. We can't bring our science to
Speaker 7: it because we have an inhibition. And if China can,
Speaker 7: is it possible that they will announce this first. And
Speaker 7: that's part of why I think a lot of this
Speaker 7: is progressing. There's a fear of what is called catastrophic disclosure,
Speaker 7: and that China says, we have the fastest supercomputers and
Speaker 7: quantum computers, we have the best artificial intelligence and artificial
Speaker 7: general intelligence. We got to the moon before you guys
Speaker 7: in this round, which looks like it's a real possibility,
Speaker 7: and we have found something. And if that is announced,
Speaker 7: we in the West will go, well, prove it. But
Speaker 7: the whole rest of the world in that moment, the
Speaker 7: danger is all the adulation, admiration of Los Alamos of NASA,
Speaker 7: all eyes turned to Beijing, and then we can say, well,
Speaker 7: but this is not scientific and you can't prove it.
Speaker 7: But the whole rest of the world is still in
Speaker 7: awe and wonder, And that is another reason why is
Speaker 7: not in our control Here in the United States. There's
Speaker 7: a real possibility that our competitors are erasing ahead because
Speaker 7: they haven't got these mental constraints.
Speaker 4: I think that's very well said. Yeah, And I hope
Speaker 4: uh policy makers and whoever's listening to this listens to
Speaker 4: that and we make real changes. Accordingly, we're gonna do
Speaker 4: explain that tweet series with you.
Speaker 12: Down what I called Curtis LeMay and I said.
Speaker 2: General, I know we have a room hit.
Speaker 12: Right, Patterson where you put all his secret stuff. Could
Speaker 12: I go in there. I've never heard him get mad,
Speaker 12: But he got madder and held me, cussed me out, said,
Speaker 12: don't ever ask me that question.
Speaker 4: You said on X that you thought Curtis LeMay had
Speaker 4: some knowledge of the UAP topic. Yeah, why do you
Speaker 4: think that?
Speaker 5: I never heard him say something about that. But the
Speaker 5: research that he was into included the new powered airplane
Speaker 5: for the better Project Ryan, the better bombers. But he
Speaker 5: was I have to think about it. I have a
Speaker 5: reason somewhere in the back of my head. Maybe we're
Speaker 5: gonna have a break soon. I'll have to think.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: He started the Rand Corporation and was interested in Towns
Speaker 4: and Brown's work as well.
Speaker 7: Right right South, and Ran did right on the subject
Speaker 7: at the beginning.
Speaker 5: They did.
Speaker 4: And you know who ended up running RAND was the
Speaker 4: president of rand for over two or three decades. Was
Speaker 4: Michael Rich, who's ben Rich's son. Ben Rich is obviously
Speaker 4: you know, the successor to Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works, right,
Speaker 4: Who's responsible for the kind of stealth revolution.
Speaker 7: All the group of people that are all interconnected.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. You also said on X that you have uncovered
Speaker 4: collaboration between Nicole and Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: But I said to you informally, I did not get
Speaker 5: that from any US source?
Speaker 6: What source?
Speaker 4: Did you get it from?
Speaker 5: Foreign intelligence?
Speaker 4: Do you think it is a good source? Do you
Speaker 4: think it's real?
Speaker 5: No reason? Why would somebody tell me that?
Speaker 4: Do you know the nature of that collaboration?
Speaker 5: The Yeah, because nobody had associated them.
Speaker 15: No.
Speaker 5: As I say, I have a network real, it's not
Speaker 5: a network of secrets, is a network of trusted people.
Speaker 5: I mean during a lot of these recent years, I
Speaker 5: have friends chiefs, the national security chief for the Japanese
Speaker 5: prime minister with my buddy.
Speaker 7: Actually Dad, we should say that after you served Kennedy
Speaker 7: Johnson Nixon Ford, you were also an advisor to many
Speaker 7: heads of government for many European countries. You advised every
Speaker 7: single Japanese prime minister since Takanaka in nineteen seventy one. So,
Speaker 7: I mean the breadth of the network that he has
Speaker 7: is it's exceptional. I've never seen anything like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well, when Nickson went down Jerry Ford enter of the
Speaker 5: White House the first full day I got summoned, he
Speaker 5: was there with Bill Seedman. And Bill Seedman was you know,
Speaker 5: in later years ahead of Resolution Trust and the I
Speaker 5: see you know all that. Bill Seeden was brilliant. Anyway,
Speaker 5: he said, how we we've got something you wanna do.
Speaker 5: I said, you know, I'm probably gonna leave for the governments,
Speaker 5: and well, don't don't hurry. We have a lot of
Speaker 5: things we have want you to do. But first of all,
Speaker 5: we want you to arrange with the NSA a new
Speaker 5: intelligence system where what is reported of interest to Jerry
Speaker 5: Ford and is what he wants and not but the
Speaker 5: CIA thinks he ought to want. So I I did that. Yeah,
Speaker 5: the next morning at six am, I living in Georgetown
Speaker 5: at the time, I mean knocking on my endor, I'm
Speaker 5: sent by the director Man and saying it, well, be
Speaker 5: a morning brief. And then every day I had you know,
Speaker 5: I p I prefer to yep, just a here later.
Speaker 5: But anyway, And I said, Jerry FOURD doesn't need to
Speaker 5: know about who the new mistress for the French prime minister.
Speaker 5: It's not really up his alley. But we do need
Speaker 5: to know is important things like Russian bookings for ships
Speaker 5: that might contain might have capacity to move a lot
Speaker 5: of our range as we were worried about inflation. So
Speaker 5: I went through a list of such things. Oh, this
Speaker 5: is wonderful if pevery flamed for that. The head of the
Speaker 5: NSAY you know, some general I can't remember his name now,
Speaker 5: told me can you have lunch over here? I'm okay,
Speaker 5: And he said, you're the best client NSAY has ever had.
Speaker 5: You're telling us what you need. That we have huge resources,
Speaker 5: but we never know about the client once. So we
Speaker 5: feed them all kinds of stuff and we give it
Speaker 5: to CIA and then they decide what might feel of
Speaker 5: interest to him. And they emphasized the love life of
Speaker 5: most important people.
Speaker 4: That sounds like a CIA thing to do, or just
Speaker 4: just go for the compromise or so it keeps the
Speaker 4: engine right.
Speaker 7: That you're your reconfiguration of the intelligence, that when that
Speaker 7: goes into the present daily briefing remains, and that the
Speaker 7: NSA continues to have that input which they did not
Speaker 7: have before that time.
Speaker 5: Wow, myself, but that's my I'm done to believe after
Speaker 5: I'm after I left government.
Speaker 4: Well, real quick, Harold, I do want to stick on
Speaker 4: the Townshend Brown Castla collaboration. So do you do you
Speaker 4: know anything about the ne nature of that collaboration.
Speaker 5: About Andrew Rabbit motion.
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 4: And so Tesla stumbled on this stuff as well, because
Speaker 4: they were both working with high voltage electricity.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think I would I really would like
Speaker 5: to read works, but they're all in the hands of
Speaker 5: you can't have access.
Speaker 4: You know, who is tasked with retrieving Tesla's files, John Trump,
Speaker 4: who was an MIT professor, the world's or the country's
Speaker 4: leading radar expert at the time, and Donald Trump's uncle.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but he passed them over, didn't need to enable
Speaker 5: the intelligence and that.
Speaker 4: Right, I don't know. That's interesting and that goes towards
Speaker 4: your theories around this stuff. And I'm pretty sure Townsend
Speaker 4: Brown's stuff was classified by the Navy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I had the baby because you're working on submarine.
Speaker 4: He was, Yeah, And he was part of the Navy
Speaker 4: up until nineteen forty two when skunk work started and
Speaker 4: then he joined Martin Vega Corporation. But maybe he was
Speaker 4: still working for the Navy, because he he showed up
Speaker 4: two weeks after leaving the Navy and he sort of left,
Speaker 4: you know, they said that they dismissed him, but like
Speaker 4: he had an amazing record, and there's even an FBI
Speaker 4: file from the time saying he was the country's leading
Speaker 4: radar expert. So there's something around that story that's very interesting.
Speaker 7: It is so fascinating too that the public are clamoring
Speaker 7: for the release of the JFK file. Is but still
Speaker 7: no talk of the Tesla papers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody talks about it.
Speaker 7: And so what's in there that's of such great importance.
Speaker 4: Well, Tessa's another guy. He said he spoke, he communicated
Speaker 4: with aliens in Colorado Springs, and people just I think
Speaker 4: they assume that's the quacky part of his work or whatever.
Speaker 4: They assume that that's ridiculous or whatever. But he would
Speaker 4: he said that and call it, you know, so the
Speaker 4: townsend Brown would constantly talk about you know, space brothers
Speaker 4: and communication with aliens. He would sleep next to what
Speaker 4: he called the short wave radio. He claimed that that
Speaker 4: was how he communicated with them.
Speaker 5: It's quite possible that the rose communication improvised different raism
Speaker 5: is a radio. I'm sure ray radio would be run
Speaker 5: not so hard to do harder as to getting somebody's
Speaker 5: head telepaths, especially because we grew up thinking that right.
Speaker 7: So, and yet the US government spend a fair amount
Speaker 7: of time and money on exactly that issue over the years.
Speaker 5: Do they said that they learned anything between that and
Speaker 5: the LSD. We'll never know, but they have some knowledge.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Because this is an interesting kind of question because Stargate,
Speaker 4: this psychic spy program started by how I'll put off
Speaker 4: and rustle targ Originally most of the guys working on
Speaker 4: that were part of the technical staff services the CIA,
Speaker 4: and it was people like Sydney Gottlieb and a lot
Speaker 4: of his comrades who were working on this stuff. And
Speaker 4: then post Church Commission that kind of changed. But yeah,
Speaker 4: how far do you think we went when it came
Speaker 4: to kind of mart mind control? And you know, it's
Speaker 4: clear that one intelligence modality is being able to remote view,
Speaker 4: draw up Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, all sorts of
Speaker 4: things like that. Even Jimmy Carter is on record saying
Speaker 4: the craziest thing of my presidency from nineteen seventy six
Speaker 4: to nineteen eighty was actually this woman, Rosemary Smith, finding
Speaker 4: a down T twenty two Russian cargo plane. And she
Speaker 4: was given all of Africa as a target, and she
Speaker 4: circled three square miles in zyeir and they found the plane.
Speaker 11: And the next time one of our space satellites went
Speaker 11: over that area relocated the plane where she said it was.
Speaker 4: What So that's clear, But do you think we've gone
Speaker 4: farther in there? Sort of mind control techniques that we have.
Speaker 5: Well very nicely, but we don't know do me?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Personally? But I think about always being of some feral point,
Speaker 5: all these inter connectivities from men, I kept doing him
Speaker 5: from where's the direction coming from? I mean, I don't
Speaker 5: feel any direct sensing. On the other hand, when I
Speaker 5: grew up, my mother was a powerful personality my brain. Mean,
Speaker 5: she could read my mind. She said, why did you
Speaker 5: do that? And I don't remember doing that? Yes you do.
Speaker 5: Let me see. It was third of January nineteenth fotu
Speaker 5: or something, you know, and how should do that? So
Speaker 5: she could do it, but I shouldn't do that with her.
Speaker 5: But on the other hand, I sometimes feel there's this
Speaker 5: hand over me. That's then no little left or right.
Speaker 5: That's the closest I have to it.
Speaker 4: And now you feel maybe somewhat guided to look into
Speaker 4: a lot of this, you know, Townsend, Brown and UFOs
Speaker 4: a few guy.
Speaker 5: And why did I hear about that? Because I I
Speaker 5: showed a deep interest. I said it to me the same.
Speaker 5: Why is it I can't see Tessa's work? Why much
Speaker 5: so important does it make now to be understand some
Speaker 5: of my scientists? And let's all that. And I respect
Speaker 5: the work of Albert Einstein, but his his work conceptual
Speaker 5: and theoretic throw around math. Teslam was very much hands on,
Speaker 5: but he's learned about electricity, his application in everything, the
Speaker 5: movement of electrons that five friends sends powering lights in
Speaker 5: your room, which led him into physical movement, transposition, whatever
Speaker 5: term you want to use. But all that is buried.
Speaker 5: But he was way way out there. I mean, in
Speaker 5: my mind he was equal to or even stronger than Einstein.
Speaker 4: I agree with that. I mean, well, Einstein was never
Speaker 4: an experimentalist. Tesla was dealing real experiments.
Speaker 5: He was, if I say here, was cerebral. You know,
Speaker 5: there's all mental, conceptual.
Speaker 4: To me, it's almost like Einstein put a governor on
Speaker 4: our physical progress in reality.
Speaker 5: And actually I agree with that he made.
Speaker 2: That right.
Speaker 5: Yes, well, it's touch level is trying to pull the
Speaker 5: not right.
Speaker 4: Yes, And the experimentalists make the most progress, and often
Speaker 4: they're poor theoreticians and they don't actually have the proper
Speaker 4: framework to really understand what they're doing. Yeah, but they're
Speaker 4: I mean, I think in the case of Tesla Towns
Speaker 4: Brown and a bunch of other cases, they're sort of uh,
Speaker 4: really at the back, operating at the boundaries of human knowledge.
Speaker 4: And often it's with high energy physics or you know,
Speaker 4: particle accelerators things like that, where we're doing things in
Speaker 4: the physical world that are kind of breaking, breaking prior limits.
Speaker 4: And sometimes it's in my cross my cross could be
Speaker 4: and just getting you know, to to lower levels of granularity.
Speaker 4: But I think that gets so much more progress than
Speaker 4: guys you know, with chalkboards, just like writing equations.
Speaker 7: So this comes up against another issue and you and
Speaker 7: I were talking with Eric Weinstein the other day about this,
Speaker 7: which is did we create a kind of invisible glass
Speaker 7: or perspect's wall. And many technologies, particularly in the nuclear space,
Speaker 7: were placed on the other side, and so you could
Speaker 7: only study them or get involved in them if you
Speaker 7: had a classified status and you joined a government lab
Speaker 7: or an approved academic lab. But if you tried to
Speaker 7: do things with nuclear physics in your garage, you were
Speaker 7: going to be arrested. And people have been arrested over
Speaker 7: the years for attempting these things. Well, that pushed a
Speaker 7: lot of theoretical physics into the don't touch arena. And now,
Speaker 7: because of incredible advancements in computational power in the kind
Speaker 7: of devices that gather data, basically you can't lock it
Speaker 7: away the way you used to, people are able to
Speaker 7: uncover it. And maybe that is part of also what
Speaker 7: is causing this UAP issue to bubble up to the
Speaker 7: surface is because it's very hard to keep a lock
Speaker 7: on it. Now you can classify the TESLA papers, but
Speaker 7: human beings are still starting to figure out what Tesla
Speaker 7: figured out. And today you know, there's been talk of,
Speaker 7: for example, in Dreesen and Horowitz, who are two of
Speaker 7: the leading venture capitalists alive today, who have recently been
Speaker 7: discussing the previous administration's attitude towards math because they don't
Speaker 7: want some teenager coming up with an artificial intelligence that
Speaker 7: would have wide ranging consequences. So they started to think
Speaker 7: we could lock that down, you know.
Speaker 19: With one of the things we argued in our meeting
Speaker 19: with the White House on a policy was you know, look,
Speaker 19: they were going to be there are going to be
Speaker 19: issues that come from AI, but let's they should be regulated.
Speaker 19: The regulation should happen at the application level, not at
Speaker 19: the technology level.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: And he argued with me when I said that.
Speaker 19: Well, yes, so so so Ben basically said, look, it
Speaker 19: doesn't make sense because to regulated at the technology level,
Speaker 19: you're regulating math, and of course we're not going to
Speaker 19: do that, Like, that doesn't make any sense. And you'll
Speaker 19: recall that what they said was no, actually we can classified, man,
Speaker 19: we can classify math. And literally this was this is
Speaker 19: this is verbatim, this is this is we we did.
Speaker 19: We classified a whole entire areas of physics, uh in
Speaker 19: the nuclear era and made them state secrets like the
Speaker 19: of the like theoretical physics, science physics.
Speaker 4: And they're like wait, what, like what yeah, like physics
Speaker 4: supposed to be open source.
Speaker 7: And so you start to wonder, is Eric Weinstein right
Speaker 7: that physics went down a certain road because there was
Speaker 7: a wall. Yes, and now the weight of new innovations
Speaker 7: is crushing that wall.
Speaker 4: Well that brings uh, you know another explain that tweet series.
Speaker 4: So we have Harold you wrote questions appearing regarding successor
Speaker 4: to a e c ae CS. The Atomic Energy Commission
Speaker 4: Department of Energy now oversees all national labs, including nuke
Speaker 4: research and security. National labs also include advanced research on
Speaker 4: other potential security threats such as biotech, all subject to
Speaker 4: DO Department of Energy R and D classifications. So are
Speaker 4: you saying here that our most advanced science is not
Speaker 4: occurring in the labs or hallways of M. I. T. Harvard, Stanford,
Speaker 4: but in fact at these DOE research facilities. Yes, I
Speaker 4: guess that's just a mic drout moment.
Speaker 5: Let me give you an example. I became really close
Speaker 5: friends with Howard Howard Baker. I mean, you've made a
Speaker 5: great press anyway. I worked with him, talked to him
Speaker 5: a lot, We became friends. He had me and my
Speaker 5: wife at that time down at his country house several times,
Speaker 5: and he said, one day I went to eruptive Oak
Speaker 5: Ridge and spent some time with them, and I said, oh,
Speaker 5: I didn't know you were attached for them. I thought
Speaker 5: you were attachedment Tennessee Valley. He said, yeah, but you
Speaker 5: know I live in Tennessee. I'm nearby. You can imagine
Speaker 5: that we are intimately interconnected. I worked would life to
Speaker 5: spend a few days talking to them about the technologies
Speaker 5: they're working on that might be made commercialized in some
Speaker 5: way or other, because they don't have that in their
Speaker 5: work agenda. They just develop and develop. But they said,
Speaker 5: I just have a feeling that a lot of that
Speaker 5: should be made in public. Trying did and they have
Speaker 5: really interesting stuff going up areas that you you never
Speaker 5: think of, the most impressive runners. When they said, somebody said,
Speaker 5: we know more about filters than anybody in the world.
Speaker 5: That's filters, I said, like filters for the work supplies,
Speaker 5: and filters of molecules, filters of any moving elements of
Speaker 5: pus you know, the uh our system. And we don't
Speaker 5: have a purpose for all this, but they're very important.
Speaker 5: In the other thing, be finding your reference. That's why
Speaker 5: we do it. Mm I said, it's a great value
Speaker 5: in biotech and in management of the water supply. Is
Speaker 5: only one of many things, but it should be well,
Speaker 5: we don't have a mechanism for generalizing what we're doing.
Speaker 5: MM and me. It's too much, it's too much work
Speaker 5: to say that's to be regulate. So we just we
Speaker 5: we don't want to get tangled up with all that
Speaker 5: stuff in Washington, so we just do what we're doing.
Speaker 5: It's stuck in my mind and why it's when the
Speaker 5: AT and T was on the even being broken up.
Speaker 5: AT and T hired me as the final witness before
Speaker 5: Judge Howard's ring and I got in to the United States.
Speaker 5: Is not ready, so total breakup. Because number one, Bell
Speaker 5: Labs is where all are really advanced sciences. They said,
Speaker 5: how do you know that? Because I went to Bell Labs.
Speaker 5: It's fine week there. I'm telling you that's where all
Speaker 5: the brain power is. And I said. The second reason
Speaker 5: is our industry. We don't We don't have Panasonic and
Speaker 5: all these other companies ready to build all the phones
Speaker 5: for all the offices we have. We're not ready. So
Speaker 5: if you're going to do this should be done in stages.
Speaker 5: The Department of Justice guy kept getting up, I have
Speaker 5: directed this testimony is not part of the casion. Judge
Speaker 5: reading and shut them down, said he's the first man
Speaker 5: talking about anything. Rether thant of interest to me as
Speaker 5: a human being.
Speaker 4: So just then to you believes because we're talking about
Speaker 4: Bell Labs. That's part of this narrative of this guy
Speaker 4: Philip J. Corso, who was working in the Army on
Speaker 4: what he claims to be the Foreign Material Exploitation Desk.
Speaker 4: He says that as part of that role, basically crash
Speaker 4: materials from Roswell were given to him to dole out
Speaker 4: to private industry, and mainly it was given to Bell Labs.
Speaker 4: He says that kevlar, lasers and transistors were all derivative
Speaker 4: of this alien technology would be so you'd say possible,
Speaker 4: but not you don't have any evidence for that.
Speaker 5: Okay, and let me interact.
Speaker 7: Something that keeps coming up in conversation about this issue
Speaker 7: is I hear a lot of pip up look for
Speaker 7: the technologies where there's no on ramp. What do you
Speaker 7: mean on ramp? I mean you can't find the research
Speaker 7: history that led to it. Those are the interesting ones
Speaker 7: to pay attention to. I'm not saying it's definitely from
Speaker 7: this particular story. The ones that come out of nowhere
Speaker 7: don'ts have interesting stories?
Speaker 4: So fascinating And Harold, do you believe because you're interested
Speaker 4: in Towns in Brown to begin with. Presumably this source
Speaker 4: gave you this information on Towns in Brown collaborating with Tesla, which,
Speaker 4: if that's true, that is remarkable and needs to be
Speaker 4: known more broadly. Do you think that Towns in Brown
Speaker 4: discovered anti gravity?
Speaker 5: I don't know, but somebody just posted on them that
Speaker 5: the works Towns are from no downloaded. The whole thing
Speaker 5: turns out to be five hundred got my telephone.
Speaker 7: He's very excited about it.
Speaker 4: That's amazing.
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, somewhere in there, I'm gonna find something.
Speaker 5: So I can't answer your question right now. Yeah, but
Speaker 5: but I think anyway was under try the movement of
Speaker 5: life proms allowed repositioning of just about anything.
Speaker 4: Is what exactly does that mean?
Speaker 5: It's the term trans remote, transmutation, transmutation, interesting of elements.
Speaker 4: So that's so interesting because when I go deep enough
Speaker 4: on the Townshend Brown stuff with certain scientists, they'll say
Speaker 4: that it gets into that the transmutation of elements thing,
Speaker 4: and that that's actually why this stuff was shut down
Speaker 4: because there are more dangerous implications around that than the
Speaker 4: anti gravity stuff.
Speaker 7: Well, look at today again, I'm a bit involved in
Speaker 7: the world of artificial intelligence, we already are able to
Speaker 7: create what are called programmable materials, where you can specify
Speaker 7: the behavior of the material and use materials as a
Speaker 7: data transmission mechanism. So suddenly you're dealing with things and
Speaker 7: capabilities that don't fit traditional parameters. Let's add to that
Speaker 7: that you know, because of Google's new Sycamore supercomputer and
Speaker 7: their new Willow chip, they're already discovering basically the recipes
Speaker 7: for creating new materials atom by atom by adam, which
Speaker 7: is a revolution in human history because in the past
Speaker 7: you had to start with, you know, a tree to
Speaker 7: make a table out of wood or a boat, right,
Speaker 7: but today you can start with what is the requirement,
Speaker 7: what are the characteristics that I need, and then build
Speaker 7: that material atom by atom by atom. So suddenly, I
Speaker 7: mean we have I think they've said three hundred and
Speaker 7: eighty thousand new materials and two million new crystals that
Speaker 7: no one's ever worked with before. And this will only
Speaker 7: continue now. So these ideas that you can have materials
Speaker 7: that do strange things is no longer insane, like we're
Speaker 7: building them.
Speaker 5: Which is a loser to advise it here and make
Speaker 5: it over there. Also, yes, it once you have the
Speaker 5: concept it's a book, it's a cookbook.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, so we're you're it's the the JFK administration.
Speaker 4: You're this young wiz kid, and you see this kind
Speaker 4: of rupture in the administration where JFK is going to
Speaker 4: scout the CIA to the winds. Dallas gets fired. He's
Speaker 4: kind of licking his wounds back at the Brown Brothers Harriman,
Speaker 4: which is this firm that sort of formed the CIA
Speaker 4: to begin with, and he is plotting possible revenge against JFK. Probably,
Speaker 4: So what do you what do you think happens from there?
Speaker 4: Do you think Dellis had anything to do with JFK's assassination.
Speaker 2: Well, they say they are going to release all.
Speaker 5: Those papers, that's right, so really scene, But what does
Speaker 5: all those papers mean? I mean, like one version or
Speaker 5: all the versions?
Speaker 4: What do you have? You ever met a guy named
Speaker 4: Danny Sheehan By any chance, Fippin knows him. So do
Speaker 4: you what do you think of because you actually you
Speaker 4: tweeted this is the first time I was so liked.
Speaker 4: I was like, Wow, I'm on Harold's radar. This is amazing,
Speaker 4: he tweeted. You know, Jesse from American Alchemy just went
Speaker 4: over a lot of the history around the JFK assassination
Speaker 4: with Danny Sheehan, and so I felt like that was
Speaker 4: maybe somewhat of an endorsement of the Danny Sheehan narrative
Speaker 4: of what happened.
Speaker 5: Ebn knows him, he knows him even better known, I'm
Speaker 5: about to know him.
Speaker 4: It seems nice. What do you do you think? So
Speaker 4: his narrative is that Nixon, who is head of the
Speaker 4: fifty four to twelve Committee under Eisenhower along with being
Speaker 4: his VP, he was working with Howard Hughes to create
Speaker 4: this quote unquote S Force, which was this kind of elite,
Speaker 4: kind of sleeper cell unit, and they were going to
Speaker 4: take out Shakhobara and Castro, and that ends up not happening.
Speaker 4: That they have pigs occurs, and you know, Eisenhower leaves
Speaker 4: and JFK comes in and they sort of, you know,
Speaker 4: move into the roll, get rolled into these other special
Speaker 4: ops programs moong Loose and Foxtrot, and then once JFK fires, Dullest,
Speaker 4: Dullest is kind of licking his wounds at the Brown
Speaker 4: Brothers Harriman and he recommissions this s force which is
Speaker 4: full of these Cuban exiles who've been militarized originally to
Speaker 4: take out Shakovar and Castro, but in fact this time
Speaker 4: around to take out JFK. Do you think that there's
Speaker 4: any credence to this story.
Speaker 5: There are quite a few stories. When I was six
Speaker 5: years old, my father moved us through the first of Providence,
Speaker 5: Rhode Island, and then to community further alone no again
Speaker 5: should be and and suddenly I found myself in the
Speaker 5: community which was totally dominated by the Sicilian mafia. M
Speaker 5: In fact, most of Rhode Island was interesting, and the
Speaker 5: dominant mafia figure for Boston was the overseer was Providence.
Speaker 5: And I grew up in this environment where in school,
Speaker 5: if one kid, one male, he had to be a bully.
Speaker 5: Out of nowhere, around near closing time for school, a
Speaker 5: couple of guys would be guys would come in rab him,
Speaker 5: take him out, beat the shit out of him. And
Speaker 5: then they told us next day he won't bully you anymore.
Speaker 5: And so I'm later on began to absence the police
Speaker 5: house at work. Here they said, no disorganized, no disorganized flan,
Speaker 5: no breakings, no bullying, no wife being, no disorganized frien
Speaker 5: organized frame definitely is protection. And all the stories about
Speaker 5: my FIA movies, I mean I grew up in all that. Yeah,
Speaker 5: this is the way it works. And I met a
Speaker 5: lot of these people not my culture. I wasn't even
Speaker 5: a Catholic, the wrongan Catholics, but I learned a lot
Speaker 5: about it. Now, let me tell you it's very interesting
Speaker 5: to me. The first time I met the Prime Minister
Speaker 5: of Italy in nineteen seventy three, Pete Peterson, who had
Speaker 5: been sent over by Nixon to do hadn't purled the world.
Speaker 5: I sat down, Uh, he said, mister Mountgren, I've been
Speaker 5: looking forward to meet you. Pete. You won't understand this.
Speaker 5: Let me explain. Hell here knows all about the Sicilian way.
Speaker 5: He grew up in it. He understands it. I know
Speaker 5: that what he looks. So let me explain before you
Speaker 5: start some lecture on the confusion of state and crime
Speaker 5: and Italy, we had all these communists, problemmakers, red brigandies,
Speaker 5: all kinds of stuff. The only way the Church and
Speaker 5: the states could fight we had to use the machia
Speaker 5: because they could do things we couldn't do. Okay, so yes,
Speaker 5: there was a triumvirate that ran in me for a
Speaker 5: long time, and there was an alliance of the Pope,
Speaker 5: the Vatican, the elected government, and the city in market.
Speaker 4: We'll let the audience interpret that analogy. Yes, an answer
Speaker 4: to the JFK question.
Speaker 5: When I met Chris Herder had been governor of Massachusetts
Speaker 5: MM before he he he'd been in Congress and government
Speaker 5: masters before he became Secuary of state. So I asked
Speaker 5: him today, I said, how did he ever do that?
Speaker 5: I said, you are a strange shooter. Why did you
Speaker 5: ever take that job a governor of Massachusetts? He said,
Speaker 5: what do you mean? I said, y, you can't run
Speaker 5: the state of Massachusetts without running Boston. You can't run
Speaker 5: Boston without them. He said, oh, you asked. You asked
Speaker 5: the same question my wife's asked me. Why are you
Speaker 5: are you doing this stupid thing? Why do you want
Speaker 5: to take it on? He said? I puzzled, I thought,
Speaker 5: I thought, and he I haven't. I'm going to establish
Speaker 5: a principle and it works for me. I said, but
Speaker 5: mister principal, I announced that I will not meet with
Speaker 5: anyone for any reason outside the government without members of
Speaker 5: the press, President. And he said, no, one from the
Speaker 5: map could come to talk to me without me inviting
Speaker 5: the president. So they had to use in the direction
Speaker 5: and I could always waved them off saying I don't
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna even say is that a threat? I
Speaker 5: really ignore you? And he said I just insulated myself.
Speaker 7: And he was independently wealthiest, well, so the couldn't be bought.
Speaker 5: He said, they can't touch me. I'm really wealthy. So
Speaker 5: I felt that. I asked you how you're want to
Speaker 5: spare me a slew?
Speaker 7: But I think it's so interesting. How did the Prime
Speaker 7: Minister of Italy know? And the answer must be that
Speaker 7: because you grew up in that community you they knew
Speaker 7: your dad.
Speaker 5: Never told me about your about it. He knew all
Speaker 5: about it.
Speaker 7: Wow, you know so that's a different network.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that same name. He said, I want you
Speaker 5: to you across the river the battle can meet Archbishop.
Speaker 5: My chinkins the head of the bank can Bank. So
Speaker 5: you please, whoever there, arrange the cars outside, don't drive
Speaker 5: you over your work and stop. You're coming from me
Speaker 5: see the archbishop you over there. My chink is from
Speaker 5: my Archbishop of Chicago. Big guy tam in his black robe,
Speaker 5: cowboy boots, leaning back booking your big fat humans cigar.
Speaker 5: He sat up the same way. He read all about you,
Speaker 5: grand to meet you, and mister how I think, he
Speaker 5: said him, he understands everything, but so billing me, I
Speaker 5: really explain to you. How will they explain more if
Speaker 5: you have questions later? And I looked up and said,
Speaker 5: we know about you from your boyhood with a lot
Speaker 5: of our associates in the mafia. So then he proceeded
Speaker 5: to talk about the trick quite partsite way of depending
Speaker 5: themselves against communism. Remember coming out of the pizza. How
Speaker 5: does he know all that social media? I don't know,
Speaker 5: but there was movement between specially and people living in
Speaker 5: I knew where I was, and I met a lot
Speaker 5: of these people. They never said, when you grew up,
Speaker 5: you can be one of us. I wasn't one of them.
Speaker 5: I wasn't Catholic. I wasn't So anyway, it was interesting.
Speaker 4: What sounds like the Italian government in the Vatican were
Speaker 4: tied into. They had mob ties in the US totally,
Speaker 4: and then that and that that connectivity allowed them to
Speaker 4: understand who you were to begin with, no question, that's amazing.
Speaker 4: Do you think there's like a deeper layer to politics
Speaker 4: that people are unaware of that, you know, I mean
Speaker 4: even outside of the talks of like a quote unquote
Speaker 4: deep state or you know, unelected bureaucrats running the government,
Speaker 4: Like is there something even deeper at play that's sort
Speaker 4: of transnational?
Speaker 2: People don't realize if I push a button, my call.
Speaker 1: Right now, this.
Speaker 4: Meant you could call Putin right now, this minute. Yeah,
Speaker 4: really you have you have a direct line to him
Speaker 4: right now?
Speaker 1: Yes, because you know I code is a story of
Speaker 1: right say about him?
Speaker 4: A second version of that, yep. And they were trying
Speaker 4: to establish a back channel and Obama shut down the
Speaker 4: back channel. That yeah, we've probably never needed this back
Speaker 4: channel more than we do today. Harold understood Putin's psychology,
Speaker 4: and with tensions between the US, Russia, and China running high,
Speaker 4: Harold's deep expertise on nuclear game theory and his former
Speaker 4: close friendship with conflict escalation expert Herman Kahan would be
Speaker 4: eminently useful.
Speaker 5: I was identified early as the person whose name they
Speaker 5: were familiar with, the chess player, and it builds slowly.
Speaker 5: In nineteen aged two or something, I was with Kiss
Speaker 5: and George Schuls and a couple of other people in
Speaker 5: Moscow as an age. We were invited to the ballet,
Speaker 5: and we came and we were going to be seated
Speaker 5: in the Tsar's box, and kissingerham as usual in marched
Speaker 5: ahead of everybody and went to the seat of the Tsar.
Speaker 5: And one of the hagb people said, Henry, not tonight,
Speaker 5: not tonight. That seat is for doctor Malgren. And he said,
Speaker 5: but it must be some misunderstanding. He said, no, no,
Speaker 5: we know him. He is the shadow of his uncle.
Speaker 5: You are not one of the world's great test players
Speaker 5: you may think of, and he may not be yet,
Speaker 5: but he comes from that bloodline, and in honor of him,
Speaker 5: he will sit in that church tonight. Now it was
Speaker 5: intended humiliation of kissing.
Speaker 4: Kissinger must have not been very I.
Speaker 5: Was already more refreshing around other issues. He really got
Speaker 5: pissed off and trying not to show it, but it
Speaker 5: was out of proportion, preposterous anyway. Yeah, he didn't forget it.
Speaker 5: I didn't forget, but I never rubbed it in. As
Speaker 5: the Soviet system was collapsing, the Russian Republic was falling together,
Speaker 5: and Yelsen became the p the first president at that
Speaker 5: time nineteen ninety two. I was invited to a meeting
Speaker 5: in Saint Petersburg, Russian and by the mayor of Saint Petersburg,
Speaker 5: and at that time the deputy mayor was blood of
Speaker 5: My Prutin, and a number of Americans from business and
Speaker 5: diplomats and and the b and top Soviet officials outgoing
Speaker 5: incoming Western officials. Heavily loaded with them what they called
Speaker 5: the Seal of Baker, the security people who were looking
Speaker 5: for new careers and gerty gathering. I don't know, seventy five,
Speaker 5: maybe up to a hundred people in the hall as
Speaker 5: the meeting opened, before you know, when you have drinks
Speaker 5: and before you sit down, all them and somebody comes
Speaker 5: to grab me and I recognize Ieman, you have Jennie
Speaker 5: Freemerkov Primakov. Who was he? He was officially National Academic
Speaker 5: Council or something. He was an official body supervising research
Speaker 5: in all fields, and he was in charge of Asia
Speaker 5: from China to the Middle East. But he had known
Speaker 5: Henjimi connections. In fact, many people thought he was official anyway.
Speaker 5: I had measured him in earlier years and he rabbed
Speaker 5: me by the elbow, that marched me over. Somebody you
Speaker 5: need to meet and he introduced me to Putin. He said,
Speaker 5: this man is rising. He will soon be very important
Speaker 5: cash and you should know him. Now I knew enough
Speaker 5: to realize that that was not an action to that.
Speaker 5: At the meeting, femer Cop looked for me, found me
Speaker 5: in a crowd, brought me over. It was intentional. Now
Speaker 5: Pertain was staying there talking to Kissinger. He didn't know
Speaker 5: Hissinger and and premer Crop said, excuse me, Henry, but
Speaker 5: Ladhiman needs to know someone else. He has no looking
Speaker 5: to me, said Helen's union into that anyway, he drew
Speaker 5: me away from Kissender. Hissinger believed he was the only channel,
Speaker 5: and it was through Femerkuf. But Dobrian may have done
Speaker 5: this was more than me. But I had a channel
Speaker 5: directly with the Russians and his choice. And but he
Speaker 5: introduced me through Pema Coalf. When I went to Moscow,
Speaker 5: Pema coalp wanted to get to know me.
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 5: I was treated not as partisan of anything, but as
Speaker 5: someone who could be trusted to carry a carry an idea,
Speaker 5: explore it to get an answer back. M it's something different.
Speaker 5: I was very mindful of not getting crossms with our
Speaker 5: intelligent system his and your thought. He was the number
Speaker 5: one communication channel in Russia and Americia, in the back channel.
Speaker 5: There's a history of why he and I had a conflict,
Speaker 5: very elaborate history, and because of my assignments and his predilection.
Speaker 5: Was it already related to the I went to Rome
Speaker 5: in US trade legislation that had a restriction on opening
Speaker 5: trade relations with Russia because of the Russian treatment of
Speaker 5: emigrats of Jews from Russia to either to the US
Speaker 5: or to Israel. And for a while I worked for
Speaker 5: the Senate in center. Abe Riverkoff was the senior Jewish
Speaker 5: leader in the American system, and as an aide told me,
Speaker 5: Jake Damage is my partner, He's number two, and the
Speaker 5: chief executive of Seagrooms in New York is the treasurer.
Speaker 5: It's it's a structure. We have guidance the APEC and
Speaker 5: other bodies, but this we represent the Jewish community and
Speaker 5: I want you to take on the task of negotiating
Speaker 5: with the Russians about this issue of Jewish immigrants. I said,
Speaker 5: am I'm not Jewish. He said, I knew that. I've
Speaker 5: been looking for someone like here for a long time.
Speaker 5: I had to be somebody who didn't have Jewish grandmothers
Speaker 5: or grandfathers or cousins. I didn't want family quils in
Speaker 5: the middle. I wanted someone with clean hands. You're the
Speaker 5: first person I met who's as smiled as us Jews.
Speaker 5: Oh God, so I said, well, I think that said.
Speaker 5: We had our laugh about them, and I did act
Speaker 5: as the intermediary. In fact, I was sent you Jerusalem,
Speaker 5: and you got briefed by both sides and Beth Shinbeth,
Speaker 5: and fully I may have several days of full playing
Speaker 5: explanation of what it goes on between usually in the
Speaker 5: US in the dark world of intelligence startled the CIA.
Speaker 5: Who the helm was I? But you know I was
Speaker 5: operating at the request of the senior and political figure
Speaker 5: in the Jewish community, so nobody's gonna mess with me anyway.
Speaker 5: But the Russians were impressed by being being kicked out.
Speaker 5: To do this out of all the different people, I couldn't.
Speaker 5: So all of this was in play in the background.
Speaker 5: So somehow the old subject guard, working through Yellison, said,
Speaker 5: Putin has to meet Harold. We don't understand Harold. He
Speaker 5: always pops up in the important places leg or something.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and then you actually dine with him one on one,
Speaker 7: you converse with him, you talk about what you learn
Speaker 7: from that relationship.
Speaker 5: You can find I wrote at the time of the
Speaker 5: the invasion of Ukraine. I wrote, by impressions putin, pressure of.
Speaker 2: The financial figure, pressure, Matt.
Speaker 3: Stuff, I see.
Speaker 4: Figures, public, see what's coppen?
Speaker 5: They on heard I wrote two essays about Putin.
Speaker 7: You should feed them on. Just a little link to them,
Speaker 7: because they're very important.
Speaker 6: There's so much.
Speaker 5: It's like, as I said, I didn't meet Prutin by accent.
Speaker 5: They arranged for me to meet. They did not ask
Speaker 5: me to write, but I did. I wrote what I
Speaker 5: thought he was up to when he was reasoning he was.
Speaker 5: I didn't criticize him praise him. All I said was
Speaker 5: this is his state of mind. He liked the two
Speaker 5: assets that I wrote. How do I know because he
Speaker 5: read them.
Speaker 2: I said, push the primary Japan.
Speaker 3: M.
Speaker 2: Well, that's the way, I said, was M.
Speaker 1: And the seconds the chief of the National Security Council
Speaker 1: and told.
Speaker 5: Him, I H wow, answered the book.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So happy to tell him by him, is there something
Speaker 2: you believe our president insurance zom And I said yes,
Speaker 2: I've given him a counsel to.
Speaker 1: Improve his speech in English, and he's made lesbouts.
Speaker 2: So I would thank you to tell him from me.
Speaker 1: The flight in New York m and its addressed to
Speaker 1: the General Assembly. Call Living Morning America and ask for
Speaker 1: a seven or eight mis interview.
Speaker 2: I said, suddenly.
Speaker 1: Your president will become by you then entirely new figure
Speaker 1: in the art of Americans because instead of dances, May
Speaker 1: May Iica engineer engenious. You're leaving robots to across America.
Speaker 1: They'll see him, young people, it will.
Speaker 2: Your staff. I don't see the base.
Speaker 1: I heard rage, and sure enough suddenly he was everybody's friend.
Speaker 3: M hmm.
Speaker 5: When I went from do od Lyndon Johnson, I arrived
Speaker 5: in October sixty four, I get called over by General
Speaker 5: Counsel LBJ. Mounts to go on a very secret mission
Speaker 5: to Tokyo. To me, it's already arranged. I hadn't know,
Speaker 5: but it's already arranged. You will meet the Japanese Prime Minister.
Speaker 5: He will be accompanied some Japanese named me as Oura,
Speaker 5: who's the English is perfect. He's an efficient in the
Speaker 5: cabinet me as our recently he was Prime minister. Anyway,
Speaker 5: So I said, okay, what do I do, said you
Speaker 5: were arranged the tickets. You do not tell anyone in
Speaker 5: your agency what you're doing. You just take some days
Speaker 5: of Chris heard her, knows you A proved it. He said,
Speaker 5: you're just the right person. Who else Chris heard of? Okay,
Speaker 5: I was in his aid, but no one else knows.
Speaker 5: Don't tell. Don't tell anyone in your agency. Don't tell.
Speaker 5: Don't visit the American embassy, they department, and don't tell anyone.
Speaker 5: You will find the entry in the agent will be
Speaker 5: handled swiftly. You would deliver this message and then you
Speaker 5: get an answer. Write it down personally when you get back.
Speaker 5: If you want to type it up, it's helpful, but
Speaker 5: don't address it to the present. Don't stay on the
Speaker 5: envelope eyes only. It will be ja because then thirty
Speaker 5: people want to see it. So and I said, well,
Speaker 5: how do I get His name is personal secretary. She
Speaker 5: will expect that. She will tell them to give her
Speaker 5: the envelope. If it comes, you deliver it yourself. They're
Speaker 5: left you in the door. You hand over the envelope.
Speaker 5: That's it. No return address. Don't have your name on
Speaker 5: day anything. Okay. Well, the origin of this was the
Speaker 5: Countedy people who are all over Johnson the minute he
Speaker 5: became president. Are you gonna keep all the commitments of
Speaker 5: John Kennedy? He said, But can I do? They put
Speaker 5: put pressure on this? I said, of course, I really,
Speaker 5: But he said some of those commitments involved something I
Speaker 5: don't agree with. It was cracking down on the imports
Speaker 5: of foreign nations of tefestiles. We it's been a delicate
Speaker 5: subject between I was in our administration. We already have
Speaker 5: this elaborate system put import controls. But I I think
Speaker 5: this is all, you know, just the favor of certain
Speaker 5: group of people. So I want to guide the dialogue
Speaker 5: of Japan. So I want to say I'm not gonna
Speaker 5: argue with you about this. We're not gonna have legislation,
Speaker 5: but I really would like your co operation to ask
Speaker 5: the Energy to slow the pace of expansion for at
Speaker 5: least a year or two, so that I don't have
Speaker 5: your addresses. Well, we had some other issues with Japan
Speaker 5: at the time. So I met Sato and so he
Speaker 5: was quite happy and said yes. Of course him back
Speaker 5: passed it on. No one never knows I made that trip.
Speaker 7: This is the beginning of what we now know is
Speaker 7: voluntary export restraints, and it was a means of keeping
Speaker 7: the peace between the US and Japan on this super
Speaker 7: politically sensitive issue for LBJ. And the point is that
Speaker 7: this is often how presidents do things. They don't always
Speaker 7: use system, they have others.
Speaker 5: At the time, after jeral has why can't you use
Speaker 5: secure lines of communication, he said, yeah, well Singute who
Speaker 5: has their system, but a lot of people listen to it, right,
Speaker 5: Sigut who doesn't deny CIA access. And then since Singue
Speaker 5: who is part of the army, most of the military
Speaker 5: knows whatever goes, So you can't use that.
Speaker 7: Not to mention the Russians and everybody.
Speaker 5: Anybody, Well, don't forget to that, we have all these
Speaker 5: other you said, you say something, It's just like if
Speaker 5: you ever send a message to the president saying I's
Speaker 5: only the president. It's an automatic imitation. Everybody asked everybody
Speaker 5: before the president sees it, they'll have to see it
Speaker 5: and write a preparatory comment. I I'll give you an
Speaker 5: example I was given when uh Nixon you came in.
Speaker 5: There was a Special Commission on the Transition, a bunch
Speaker 5: of papers from Dean Rusk to Johnson Nick. You know,
Speaker 5: Nixon was coming in with pelitation to see it. And
Speaker 5: there was a bunch of papers with a letter from
Speaker 5: George Ball to the President pleading with let's downsize this
Speaker 5: whole Vietnam thing before it low's up in your face.
Speaker 5: But cover notes that size stapled on from Dean Rusk.
Speaker 5: It was George added again, finally getting the way of
Speaker 5: what we must do. I mean Dean russ totally dismissed
Speaker 5: it of everything. Now interesting. I was told later coming
Speaker 5: I know this by his daughter Linda Bird, that he
Speaker 5: really valued George Bauld. He read every member of George Boulder.
Speaker 5: He thought he was the only guy in the foreign
Speaker 5: policy system that his brains quecially, George Bauld was always
Speaker 5: opposed to heightening the war. So I mean I knew
Speaker 5: the daughter because I dayd a girl who was best
Speaker 5: friends of Linda Bird. So I spent evenings with her
Speaker 5: and her boyfriend playing cards. So I learned lots of
Speaker 5: stuff my own intelligence system.
Speaker 7: I'm telling.
Speaker 5: Well him and male It was sometimes beneficial, I can
Speaker 5: say you over a lifetime more not beneficial anyway, but
Speaker 5: that kind of process, there was no secure unless you
Speaker 5: said somebody, and then you can't do it the way
Speaker 5: it's visible.
Speaker 4: Well, I love you. You're in my research. Your name
Speaker 4: always pops up next to malmgrim Ink, which I always
Speaker 4: found like hilariously nondescript and non threatening and sort of,
Speaker 4: you know, just extremely generic.
Speaker 5: Well, I never advertised anything specific.
Speaker 4: You seem to just keep getting having these interactions with
Speaker 4: people kind of on the inside. I mean, now we're
Speaker 4: getting a trip your territory. And who knows if this
Speaker 4: is correct, but it's almost like a sort of mental
Speaker 4: network or a network of serendipity or something where you
Speaker 4: look at your interactions with Carl Compton as young as
Speaker 4: you were, and then Richard Bissel saying it's almost like
Speaker 4: I need to tell you this for some sort of
Speaker 4: unknown reason. And so there's something about that that I
Speaker 4: find fascinating, and particularly on nuclear nuclear and.
Speaker 7: I mean, how many Americans have sat down and had
Speaker 7: dinner with President Putin and understand how what he thinks
Speaker 7: about nuclear weapons and how they might be used, which
Speaker 7: I think is as a story you should tell a
Speaker 7: little bit about because it all goes back to the
Speaker 7: thirteen year old requesting these documents and somehow ends up
Speaker 7: Now I've been told, but Dad won't confirm that he
Speaker 7: worked on preventing nuclear crisis on more than one occasion,
Speaker 7: but you only tell me about one. And people in
Speaker 7: the intelligence world are like, oh, your dad is good.
Speaker 7: What's going on? So I won't make you go there.
Speaker 7: But you have met with the leader of Russia on
Speaker 7: nuclear matters after all of this that we now know, Wow,
Speaker 7: this I think is related to this subject, and it's
Speaker 7: important to discuss. And today, do we have a system
Speaker 7: for deconflicting the US and Russia if these things show up?
Speaker 7: And what is happening practically as we speak, we have
Speaker 7: unidentified objects flying all over the United States.
Speaker 6: Yes, not just in New Jersey.
Speaker 7: No, over nuclear facilities, over weapons, arsenals, But it's happening globally.
Speaker 4: And the speculation on the people deepest on the subject,
Speaker 4: people like Robert Hastings through an amazing book called UFOs
Speaker 4: and Nukes, and all of his whistleblowerslmost one hundred and
Speaker 4: seventy who work they have Q clearances at these atomic sites.
Speaker 4: Their intuition, you could just you could say a whole
Speaker 4: host of things as far as why these UFOs show up.
Speaker 4: You could say they're offensive, which I just don't believe
Speaker 4: because they haven't really done too much. That's offensive. They've
Speaker 4: done really nothing.
Speaker 7: We shoot at them, but they don't shoot it up.
Speaker 2: They don't shoot at us.
Speaker 4: So all of their first intuition as to why these
Speaker 4: UFOs show up around our most sensitive sites is because
Speaker 4: they're trying to show us that our ways are are
Speaker 4: you know, too brutal, and we're going to blow ourselves
Speaker 4: up and to kind of make us think about higher things.
Speaker 4: And so I don't know if you guys think that.
Speaker 5: But no, I think I think that's what it's all about. Plus,
Speaker 5: if you're true serious when you're here explosions, we can
Speaker 5: do lasting diamonds to the to the shell of the Earth.
Speaker 5: We're plumbing deeper and deeper in to the center. I mean,
Speaker 5: we don't know what happens if you're stuck.
Speaker 4: If you're stuck, well, there's an optimum of radiation necessary
Speaker 4: for evolution to occur because you have, you know, this
Speaker 4: kind of intersection between the magnetosphere of the Earth, which
Speaker 4: actually dictates biological morphology in a pretty fundamental way, and
Speaker 4: UV radiation, which creates the genetic mutations necessary for natural
Speaker 4: selection differential selection. And you are messing with this sort
Speaker 4: of equilibrium every time there's a nuclear spill. And the
Speaker 4: really interesting crazy part is you have a town in
Speaker 4: Japan next to the Fukushima Prefecture called Lino, and it's
Speaker 4: dedicated to UFOs and they're like over fifty percent of
Speaker 4: the residents all believe in UFOs. There's a museum dedicated
Speaker 4: to UFOs and they're during the spill, they say the
Speaker 4: UFOs came down, they helped clean up the spill. This
Speaker 4: this monk who guards this temple in Japan, and so
Speaker 4: it's just fascinating. It's like there's the stewards of the earth.
Speaker 5: They may well be, but it begins with the every fashion.
Speaker 5: As I said, I felt all the way along these
Speaker 5: unexpected inter related events, there was a there was a
Speaker 5: message to the madness somewhere and I my mother time me,
Speaker 5: just keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 4: The other purpose.
Speaker 5: You have a purpose and you may not know it
Speaker 5: until the end, but well, I means I may be
Speaker 5: approaching the end. On my doctors say, I'm I will
Speaker 5: outlast my mother. She lived one hundred Wow, what's yes? Yeah,
Speaker 5: But my doctor's saying, no, you have no physiological problems,
Speaker 5: no troubles with your knees and hips and all that.
Speaker 7: Stuff at eighty nine.
Speaker 4: To be clear, you're you're already lasting longer than most
Speaker 4: of my interview subjects.
Speaker 2: So Kennedy had a point of question. He O, going
Speaker 2: to a mess shoulders, don't.
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: I don't know what the first broadly I came to
Speaker 2: the office, I said, why am I going? I asked?
Speaker 2: When I said, Well.
Speaker 1: Who had a record?
Speaker 2: He said, the dame. Then you met the present in
Speaker 2: my dam that day your name went all the important
Speaker 2: books of talent.
Speaker 3: Mmm h.
Speaker 2: That that that who keeps?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: There not only say but you know a modestic holy aient.
Speaker 1: They also have those symatype the world. So are you
Speaker 1: who are chosen?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And when you were brought here so you are fresh. No,
Speaker 2: it's not not for any of us under the world
Speaker 2: that the word worse.
Speaker 4: Could Harold have been using the moniker majestic in its
Speaker 4: counterintelligence context, absolutely, But he used the word so secondhand,
Speaker 4: so casually that he was clearly speaking about some genuine group,
Speaker 4: in my opinion, a group probably related to continuity of
Speaker 4: government and contingency plans. Contingency plans for general catastrophes like
Speaker 4: nuclear events, not just extraterrestrials. These sorts of committees have
Speaker 4: gone by many names, fifty four to twelve, the three
Speaker 4: Zho three Committee, the Committee of forty, and they probably
Speaker 4: involved subcommittees we'll never know the names of. On our
Speaker 4: drive to the hospital, with his oxygen hovering at unsafe levels,
Speaker 4: Harold maintained the cheeriest of attitudes and could not stop
Speaker 4: telling stories about his past. There was so much he
Speaker 4: wanted to get off his chest. We discussed the fact
Speaker 4: that Putin was trying to set up a diplomatic back
Speaker 4: channel with Harold in two thousand and nine, but that
Speaker 4: Obama shut that prospect down. We talked about Harold helping
Speaker 4: Schoi Shiro Toyota set up the Toyota headquarters in Kentucky.
Speaker 4: We even talked about the fact that Harold was one
Speaker 4: of the first people on earth to break the four
Speaker 4: minute mile after Roger Banister. Apparently, Harold could repeatedly break
Speaker 4: the four minute mile in his twenties. Right as we
Speaker 4: got to the hospital, we got into Tripier territory. Harold
Speaker 4: said he was engaged in deep research around the mid
Speaker 4: century anti gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown. We discussed Brown's
Speaker 4: obsession with time travel because gravity is linked with time
Speaker 4: in general relativity. We talked about how towns in Brown
Speaker 4: really believed he had found a missing puzzle piece for
Speaker 4: time travel. I then asked Harold about the existence of
Speaker 4: a coordinated group trying to deliberately affect timelines. A very
Speaker 4: talkative Harold Malmgren went noticeably silent. Well, Harold, I want
Speaker 4: you to take care of yourself, man, And I know
Speaker 4: we've been talking for an hour now, and I wish
Speaker 4: I could be with you in person, missy Man, And
Speaker 4: I want you to just get better, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I really hope you rest up. And you have my
Speaker 4: numbers so you can call me at any time if
Speaker 4: you ever need help with anything. And yeah, okay, my house,
Speaker 4: it's good.
Speaker 16: Good.
Speaker 4: Under the pseudonym Chase Brandon, a CIA agent turned Hollywood liaison,
Speaker 4: wrote a book in twenty twelve. The book discusses a
Speaker 4: celestial object that telepathically communicates with its recipients. The object
Speaker 4: also relays critical information about future timelines. A secret committee
Speaker 4: is brought together by synchronicities and extraterrestrial beings that seem
Speaker 4: to know about every one of its members. The Committee
Speaker 4: are an elite group of military and scientific thinkers designated
Speaker 4: to deal with the issue of non human intelligence. The
Speaker 4: main character of the book is a mathematical whiz kid
Speaker 4: named Chalmers, who is plucked by the head Haunchos of
Speaker 4: the Office of Strategic Services and then this special Committee.
Speaker 4: He helps the committee navigate the future of humanity and
Speaker 4: manage complex timelines. He's also taken in and out of
Speaker 4: a liminal, timeless dominion where he's taught important things by
Speaker 4: other worldly beings that go to determine his purpose in life.
Speaker 4: The common trope in the book is that Chalmers had
Speaker 4: a purpose. It was a deeply installed, driven purpose, even
Speaker 4: if it was subconscious. The first page of this book
Speaker 4: quotes Francis Bacon, truth is so hard to tell it
Speaker 4: sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible. When Harold called
Speaker 4: me again and prior to his passing, I thought I'd
Speaker 4: bring up time travel one last time. Harold, do you
Speaker 4: think your life is connected with time travel in any way?
Speaker 2: I've thought about this many many times, and may as yes.
Speaker 1: Nothing else explains. When I'm calling on Am I the
Speaker 1: best why I didn't have the least ammission.
Speaker 2: I was so aking. I knew something. I don't know
Speaker 2: why I know it.
Speaker 3: I know it.
Speaker 1: In fact, what I didn't saying was what came through.
Speaker 1: I mustn't know this knowledge at that time. So if
Speaker 1: you ask me, did I have a purpose?
Speaker 3: Yes, mm.
Speaker 1: Now my mother was the most remarkable person. She read
Speaker 1: books like that, no tomorrow. She read so many books.
Speaker 3: M h and uh.
Speaker 2: She kept saying, you man, you would have to understand
Speaker 2: you cannot decided by yourself. You were given those there
Speaker 2: was a purpose.
Speaker 3: Mm.
Speaker 2: Have to you have to consume your purpose.
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