Graham Hancock: Aliens, Atlantis & An Ancient Apocalypse?? SPECIAL PRESENTATION
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Speaker 1: Hello, Randall. How are you, my friend?
Speaker 2: I'm doing very well. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Are you doing, Jesse? I'm good man. Do you believe
Speaker 1: that there are survivors of ancient Atlantis that are among us,
Speaker 1: perhaps with underwater bases or bases on the moon and
Speaker 1: advanced technology.
Speaker 2: A question, Jesse, I will just say very provisional. Yes.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty three is going to be a your disclosure.
Speaker 2: Things come around in your time, and there's been lost knowledge,
Speaker 2: but it's never been completely lost. Its fat incident everywhere
Speaker 2: around us, and some of it's been in every days.
Speaker 3: I just haven't understood to recognize what it is.
Speaker 1: According to a professional midway journalist at The Guardian, my
Speaker 1: next guest's highly acclaimed docu series is the most dangerous
Speaker 1: show on Netflix.
Speaker 4: You'd be described as a pseudo cherry picts your data.
Speaker 1: And that makes him the perfect guest on our show,
Speaker 1: American Alchemy.
Speaker 4: If you've got to roll your eyes at the notion
Speaker 4: of mother Ayahuasca, go drink some ayahuasca and then see
Speaker 4: if you're going to roll your right.
Speaker 1: The docu series is called Ancient Apocalypse, and the journalist
Speaker 1: is internationally acclaimed best selling author Graham Hancock Since his
Speaker 1: nineties cult class Fingerprints of the Gods, Hancock has been
Speaker 1: accumulating an abundance of evidence to show that our modern
Speaker 1: historical narrative that civilization was born a mere six thousand
Speaker 1: years ago in Mesopotamia is wrong and incomplete.
Speaker 2: It's going to absolutely to fan a rewrite of history as.
Speaker 4: We know it.
Speaker 1: Hancock thinks that the human species has been suffering from
Speaker 1: mass amnesia, and that maybe hunter gatherers were taught basic
Speaker 1: agriculture and astronomy by remnant survivors of an ancient civilization
Speaker 1: that was wiped out in a mass extinction event.
Speaker 4: There is testimony from the anciency yes saying an enormous
Speaker 4: flood happened and that there was a time where there
Speaker 4: were only a few survivors.
Speaker 1: On This hypothesis, known as the Younger Driest impact theory,
Speaker 1: sustains that an asteroid from the torred meteor stream hit
Speaker 1: the Earth, causing a global cataclysm to make things even trippier.
Speaker 1: This comet impact date almost perfectly coincides with Plato's dates
Speaker 1: for the destruction of Atlantis. But let's reign in the
Speaker 1: speculation on which civilizations preceded ours, inserting Atlantis as a
Speaker 1: placeholder for that civilization is admittedly a little more speculative,
Speaker 1: as Graham Hancock would.
Speaker 4: Even admit, I'm not claiming or insisting that there was
Speaker 4: a civilization that was actually cold at Lantis. By Plato's time,
Speaker 4: it was cold Atlantis.
Speaker 1: But crazy speculations on Atlantis notwithstanding, I personally think it
Speaker 1: just takes some childlike instincts and basic inference to believe
Speaker 1: Hancock's argument about the younger Dry's impact theory. There's an
Speaker 1: overwhelming amount of evidence to show that a global cataclysm.
Speaker 3: Probably did occur.
Speaker 1: Let's just take these high level facts. The modern field
Speaker 1: of archaeology was born a mere two hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: Let that sink in the very idea that we take
Speaker 1: is complete dogma that civilization started in the Fertile Crescent
Speaker 1: six thousand years ago. That concept was only established two
Speaker 1: hundred years ago with the discovery of the great capital
Speaker 1: cities of Assyria and Babylonia. As we explore and discover
Speaker 1: more ancient archaeological sites, our dates for civilization get progressively
Speaker 1: older and older. Take to Beckley Tepe, an ancient burial
Speaker 1: site in modern Turkey dating as far back as nine
Speaker 1: thousand BC. And involving the complex assembly of fifty ton blocks.
Speaker 4: It's not something that you're a hunter gatherer and you
Speaker 4: wake up one morning and think, oh, I'm just going
Speaker 4: to build the largest megalithic site that will ever be
Speaker 4: seen anywhere in the world.
Speaker 1: Tepi was excavated in the nineties, so I think it
Speaker 1: would actually be the easy or safe bet to say
Speaker 1: that in the next hundred years we'll find architecture that
Speaker 1: predates even this. It's like a sort of Moor's law
Speaker 1: for archaeology. The deeper we go, the older human history gets.
Speaker 1: The lowest parts in any sediment layer are the hardest
Speaker 1: parts to explore. That's just geology one oh one, and
Speaker 1: our digging and underground mapping techniques are getting better and better.
Speaker 1: Not to mention, you have entire swass of the earth
Speaker 1: and deep ocean that may have been above sea level
Speaker 1: in times past, the Amazon Forest, which is the size
Speaker 1: of the Indian subcontinent, and the four million square mile
Speaker 1: Sahara Desert that have basically gone completely untouched and unnoticed
Speaker 1: by conventional archaeologists. To say that we know what exists
Speaker 1: in these massive black box territories is the epitome of
Speaker 1: human hubris. Finally, you have hundreds and hundreds of flood
Speaker 1: myths across cultures that had no contact with each other.
Speaker 1: The amount of corroborating evidence for some flood having occurred
Speaker 1: is overwhelming.
Speaker 4: That story does not stand alone. That story is one
Speaker 4: of approximately two thousand flood traditions.
Speaker 1: Right, And for skeptics to unequivocally discount these texts because
Speaker 1: many of them are religious in nature, is itself dogmatic
Speaker 1: and unscientific.
Speaker 4: These are the memory banks of our species. It's in
Speaker 4: these myths that the memories are passed down.
Speaker 1: I like to characterize Hancock's books as oscillating between trippy
Speaker 1: and speculative and very hardheaded and scientific. It's almost as
Speaker 1: if he'll write one book for the esoteric psychonaut and
Speaker 1: then the next for the modern scientific skeptic. His archaeological
Speaker 1: accounts have been well covered on Netflix Now and by
Speaker 1: other podcasts, So in this very raw, long form interview,
Speaker 1: I wanted to go off the deep end with him
Speaker 1: and get into the secrets of the Arc of the
Speaker 1: Covenant DMT and its history and its transcendent qualities, and
Speaker 1: his fascinating beliefs on aliens, which he writes about in
Speaker 1: his two thousand and five hit book Supernatural. So without
Speaker 1: further sit back, relax and hit subscribe. Well, I explore
Speaker 1: the mysteries of our forgotten past with this week's American alchemist,
Speaker 1: Graham Hancock.
Speaker 3: Maybe you should interview me because I've climbed the Great
Speaker 3: Pyramid five times and two of those clients were legal.
Speaker 4: Of course, there was a time when anybody could anybody
Speaker 4: could climb the Great Pyramid.
Speaker 3: But here's my little anecdote.
Speaker 4: I found something I together found at the top of
Speaker 4: the Great Pyramid on the south side, overlooking what used
Speaker 4: to be the Boat Museum.
Speaker 3: On one step.
Speaker 4: Down from the top, we found the name P Initial P. Hancock,
Speaker 4: fifth of April nineteen sixteen. Well, my father was Philip Hancock. Now, yes,
Speaker 4: and he was in Egypt. He was in Yeah, he
Speaker 4: was in Egypt during the First World War. I still
Speaker 4: couldn't be one hundred percent sure it was him. And
Speaker 4: at that time my dad was still alive, and he
Speaker 4: had my grandfather's diaries, which were little things, little diaries,
Speaker 4: dozens of them. And I went through to the date
Speaker 4: given and I opened that page and I saw just
Speaker 4: one line and it said climbed Great pyramid today.
Speaker 1: That's crazy.
Speaker 3: It was my granddad. Yeah, so I am kind of
Speaker 3: connected to that.
Speaker 1: Oh, you're completely connected.
Speaker 5: That's so why did archaeologists tell us for so long
Speaker 5: hunter gatherers couldn't do it and we needed agricultural populations
Speaker 5: that could generate surpluses that could pay for the specialists
Speaker 5: super theory. But that was so Now with archaeolog just
Speaker 5: saying it was, I guess we were wrong about hunter gathers.
Speaker 3: So yeah.
Speaker 1: The funny thing about Michael Schrmer, there's a story about
Speaker 1: him and I think his wife Jennifer, and they were
Speaker 1: I was like, on their wedding, this mechanical clock starts
Speaker 1: playing in the other room that was an heirloom from
Speaker 1: her father, and it hadn't played and it was completely
Speaker 1: broken and it hadn't played in like twenty years or something.
Speaker 1: And her father was supposed to walk her down the aisle,
Speaker 1: but he had died prior to the wedding, and it
Speaker 1: was this mystical moment for him. It's this beautiful quote
Speaker 1: and I'm going to batch it now if I were
Speaker 1: to paraphrase it. It's like, we must throw away the
Speaker 1: dogmas of science sometimes and make room for these sort
Speaker 1: of anomalous mystical Michael said the moments he says this
Speaker 1: in the article.
Speaker 4: I'm very happy to hear that, And I would say
Speaker 4: I've only known Michael personally since twenty seventeen, when I
Speaker 4: had a debate with him on the Joe Rogan experience.
Speaker 4: Since then, I've had some correspondence with him, and I've
Speaker 4: found him to be a much less dogmatic skeptic than
Speaker 4: I had taken him for. And just recently I had
Speaker 4: had an email from him concerning my Ancient Apocalypse series
Speaker 4: on Netflix, where he kindly said that he felt I've
Speaker 4: made I'd made a good case for my basic proposition
Speaker 4: that we're missing an episode of the human story that
Speaker 4: there may have been a forgotten, lost civilization of the
Speaker 4: Ice Age. And I think to me that speaks well
Speaker 4: of Michael's integrity, that he that he's willing to step
Speaker 4: out of an entrenched position when the evidence speaks to
Speaker 4: the need to step out of it, rather than just
Speaker 4: sticking in it all the time, or so many of
Speaker 4: my critics do. So much of our planet has not
Speaker 4: really been subjected to detailed, intensive archaeological survey. I think
Speaker 4: it's extremely premature for our chaeologists to be so confident
Speaker 4: in their model of the origins of civilization, they should
Speaker 4: have some humility and allow some leg room for alternative
Speaker 4: suggestions to come in. Instead of just trying to smash
Speaker 4: down anybody who says something that doesn't agree with their model,
Speaker 4: Perhaps be just a little more warm hearted, a little
Speaker 4: more open, and see what's good in the alternative va
Speaker 4: that this is being presented, rather than just trying to
Speaker 4: find bad things about it, and have a more constructive
Speaker 4: dialogue instead of this you know, we know best, and
Speaker 4: we're going to smash you down, and we're going to
Speaker 4: insult you and humiliate you and call you any names
Speaker 4: we can.
Speaker 3: So childish.
Speaker 1: Really, I don't even know what arguments they like if
Speaker 1: they see some like go Beckley Teppe has been that's
Speaker 1: been discovered since the nineties. Yeah, and so it's I
Speaker 1: don't even know what arguments you have as to how
Speaker 1: the fertile Crescent is sort of the cradle of civilization.
Speaker 1: After that, and then in your amazing documentary docuseries rather
Speaker 1: Netflix Ancient Apocalypse.
Speaker 3: Which feeds, one of the episodes is focused on go
Speaker 3: Beckley Tepper.
Speaker 1: Right, and but you have seven or eight others that
Speaker 1: are pretty convincing as well, and so at that point
Speaker 1: it feels like kind of overwhelming that the consensus should
Speaker 1: actually shift.
Speaker 4: Yes, at at the very least, there should be there
Speaker 4: should be willingness to consider the possibility that we have
Speaker 4: missed an important chapter of the human story.
Speaker 1: You are to know one reason, and I'm sure there
Speaker 1: are a whole host of other reasons. But why they
Speaker 1: reflexively might deny this as well is because I think
Speaker 1: it interestingly dovetails with stories in the Bible and other
Speaker 1: religious texts around great floods.
Speaker 4: Well, the flood, of course, you know, is a very
Speaker 4: important story in the Bible. I think a lot of
Speaker 4: what a lot of people who are into the Bible
Speaker 4: don't realize that that story does not stand alone. That
Speaker 4: story is one of approximately two thousand flood traditions right
Speaker 4: that have found all around the world exactly the clearly
Speaker 4: documenting a global phenomenon.
Speaker 2: If we turn to the subject of paleo hydrology, it
Speaker 2: totally confirms the reality of these inconceivably gigantic floods the
Speaker 2: occurred at the end of the Last Icing.
Speaker 1: And if a comment from the tord meteor stream were
Speaker 1: to hit the Earth, it could create a big flood.
Speaker 3: You better.
Speaker 1: The tourd meteor stream was formed when a massive comment
Speaker 1: entered our Inner Solar System's orbit around twenty thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: Over time, this comet has disintegrated into smaller space debris
Speaker 1: like the very famous one point five mile wide comet
Speaker 1: anky Ankie and other comets in the southern Torrets crossed
Speaker 1: the Earth's orbit yearly from September to November, while the
Speaker 1: Northern Torret streams crossed the Earth starting in mid to
Speaker 1: late October. Both of these streams cause beautiful light showers
Speaker 1: and give astronomers panic attacks. Why because they can cause
Speaker 1: massive damage on Earth in the form of impacts and airbursts.
Speaker 4: We're not dealing with just little dust sized particles that
Speaker 4: burn up in the upper atmosphere. And that just as
Speaker 4: it was a danger to humanity twelve thousand, eight hundred
Speaker 4: years ago, it hasn't gone away and it still can
Speaker 4: be a danger to us today.
Speaker 1: Just take comet Shoemaker Levy nine, which collided with Jupiter
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four. It was only a little over
Speaker 1: a half mile wide, but its impact on Jupiter was
Speaker 1: the equivalent to six million megatons of TNT, more six
Speaker 1: hundred times the destructive force of the entire Earth's new
Speaker 1: clear arsenal. And isn't there speculation that the nineteen oh
Speaker 1: eight Tenguska correct event was possible.
Speaker 4: Correct correct because the Tumulski event took place on the
Speaker 4: thirtieth of June nineteen hundred and eighty. It was an
Speaker 4: air burst. It exploded in the air, flattened two thousand
Speaker 4: square miles of trees, didn't kill anybody because it was
Speaker 4: over an uninhabited area of Siberia, but did enormous, enormous damage,
Speaker 4: And the fact that it occurred on the thirtieth of
Speaker 4: June suggests very strongly that it was part of the
Speaker 4: tory Metia.
Speaker 3: Stream because that is the peak of the torreds.
Speaker 1: In June, NASA's Dart program eemed to prove that humans
Speaker 1: can deflect asteroids with satellites and prevent Earth impact. In fact,
Speaker 1: spacecrafts launched in November of twenty one in September of
Speaker 1: twenty two intentionally crashed into Dimorphous, a minor planet moon
Speaker 1: of the asteroid Diddimus, successfully altering its orbit. The problem
Speaker 1: is Dimorphous has a diameter of two hundred meters, not
Speaker 1: even close to the half mile width of Shoemaker Levy.
Speaker 4: No, it's interesting that mass adart mission is taking place
Speaker 4: now because we know that in the next thirty years
Speaker 4: or so we are going to be crossing a much
Speaker 4: more lumpy and much more dangerous part of the Tory beatings.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I didn't know that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: In fact, doctor Allan West, one of the scientists from
Speaker 4: the Comic Research Group, he points that out that the
Speaker 4: next thirty years are a danger time.
Speaker 1: There are plenty of unknown comments in the annually passing
Speaker 1: toward meteor stream that have completely cataclysmic destructive potential, so
Speaker 1: we need to invest in advancing our deflection capabilities here.
Speaker 4: Of course, it's not the only global threat. There are
Speaker 4: any other global threats, all of which require an elevation
Speaker 4: of consciousness of the human race. We have to be
Speaker 4: get out of this tribal mentality where we're all hating
Speaker 4: and fighting each other, right, and get into a more
Speaker 4: loving and more positive mentality.
Speaker 1: Otherwise it'll be like that movie don't look up. We're
Speaker 1: trying to tell you that the dire planet is about
Speaker 1: to be destroyed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an excellent movie. The way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it sort of connects with all
Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, I think the part where I struggle
Speaker 1: most with and what I'd love to talk to you about,
Speaker 1: because I feel like most interviews with you kind of
Speaker 1: focus on the abundance of evidence that human history is
Speaker 1: much older than we realize. But I know you well
Speaker 1: enough to know that you've done speculating beyond that. And
Speaker 1: so let's demarcate this to the audience that this is
Speaker 1: speculation and we don't know, but it's interesting and because
Speaker 1: of the abundance of evidence, it's we should be speculating.
Speaker 1: That is that's it's almost like our duty.
Speaker 4: I think speculation is very healthy, and you know, we
Speaker 4: need to we need to step out of the mainstream
Speaker 4: point of view. That's that's where I think people like
Speaker 4: me can possibly pay play a useful role.
Speaker 1: So, having said that, what's your number one candidate for
Speaker 1: an antecedent civilization? I mean that the classic one would
Speaker 1: be Atlantis, who wrote a book called America Before, which
Speaker 1: connects with this story. Do you think it is Atlanta?
Speaker 1: Are there other.
Speaker 4: I think the name, the name Atlantis needs to be
Speaker 4: taken as standing for something else need to be taken
Speaker 4: as standing for something larger. I'm not I'm not claiming
Speaker 4: or insisting that there was a civilization that was actually
Speaker 4: called Atlantis. By Plato's time, it was called Atlantis. Plato
Speaker 4: is the Plato is the earliest surviving reference we have
Speaker 4: to this great lost civilization of prehistory that he referred
Speaker 4: to as Atlantis. His source was an ancestor of his.
Speaker 4: He didn't know him personally there separated by about two
Speaker 4: hundred years, but the story had been passed down in
Speaker 4: the family line, and that ancestor was a very famous
Speaker 4: Greek lawmaker, Solon. And we know that Solon made a
Speaker 4: documented visit to Egypt round about the year six hundred
Speaker 4: BC in our calendar. And Solon went to a temple
Speaker 4: dedicated to the goddess Neith at Seiss in the Delta,
Speaker 4: and there the priests showed showed him certain inscriptions on walls,
Speaker 4: and he asked them to interpret, and they said that
Speaker 4: what these inscriptions recounted was a former civilization which had
Speaker 4: been highly advanced, but which was destroyed. That they said,
Speaker 4: in a single dreadful day and night, was swallowed up
Speaker 4: by the sea and vanished.
Speaker 3: And the other point, which.
Speaker 4: I think is really really important to make, and I
Speaker 4: do make this point in the series is the date.
Speaker 3: The date that Plato gives.
Speaker 1: Us is right around the Younger drive Well date.
Speaker 4: The point is that when Solon was at that temple,
Speaker 4: the priests told him the Atlantis story and how Atlantis
Speaker 4: was swallowed up by the sea in a single terrible
Speaker 4: day and night. He asked them when did this happen?
Speaker 4: And they said nine thousand years ago. Now, immediately, that's
Speaker 4: a date we can convert into our calendar. Nine thousand
Speaker 4: years ago in six hundred BC is a date we
Speaker 4: call nine thousand, six hundred BC, which give or take
Speaker 4: to years, is eleven thousand, six hundred years ago. And
Speaker 4: just as the Younger Dryass began cataclysmically with a sea
Speaker 4: level rise twelve eight hundred years ago, it also ended
Speaker 4: cataclysmically with an even more massive sea level rise eleven thousand,
Speaker 4: six hundred years ago. And that massive sea level rise
Speaker 4: has a name. You'll just call it melt water Pulse
Speaker 4: one B. It's well documented. Nobody disputes that there was
Speaker 4: a melt water pulse one B and it raised sea
Speaker 4: levels massively, literally overnight. So here we have Plato passing
Speaker 4: down a story with a date attached to it, which
Speaker 4: coincides exactly with what modern science recognizes as a massive
Speaker 4: global flooding event. And when that's taken into account with
Speaker 4: the evidence from the edge for building texts, I think
Speaker 4: the Atlantis story becomes a whole lot more credible.
Speaker 1: You've often said that we'll put You've often said that
Speaker 1: the human race is suffering from amnesia mass amnesia, and
Speaker 1: a mutual friend of ours, Brian Murescu, wholl you sort
Speaker 1: of presented to the world on Joe Rogan wrote a
Speaker 1: great book called The Immortality Key, for which I wrote
Speaker 1: the forward for which he wrote the forward, and he
Speaker 1: talks about not only the human race as suffering from amnesia,
Speaker 1: but this is kind of a platonic concept. The individual
Speaker 1: suffering from amnesia is concept of anemnesis that the birthing
Speaker 1: process is kind of a traumatic forgetting process of your
Speaker 1: primordial soul, and that these Elusinian mystery rituals. Eleusis being
Speaker 1: thirteen miles northwest of Athens. You've been to Elesis. Amazing
Speaker 1: is this place where the fathers of Western civilization, Plato, Socrates,
Speaker 1: if he existed, Aristotle, all the great names went and
Speaker 1: experienced some form of maybe noesis like knowledge of their soul.
Speaker 1: So do you think, well, but.
Speaker 3: It's important to add yes.
Speaker 4: That's I first went into this in my two thousand
Speaker 4: and five book Supernatural Yes, which has been recent reissued
Speaker 4: under a new title of Visionary. The point is, there's
Speaker 4: no doubt in my mind that Elusis was a place.
Speaker 4: It was a perfect setting for deep psychedelic journeys. Every
Speaker 4: initiate in the Ellucinian industries was given a drink called
Speaker 4: the k and they were given this drink, then they
Speaker 4: went down into this deep, dark hallway. We don't know
Speaker 4: exactly what went on in there because the rituals were
Speaker 4: were kept secrets, but they then had extraordinary life changing experiences.
Speaker 3: And in many cases many of those great.
Speaker 4: Philosophers said that what they lost was their fear of death.
Speaker 4: That they had had fear of death before and after
Speaker 4: this experience they no longer feared feared death. And you know,
Speaker 4: Brian also presents excellent evidence that early Christianity was a
Speaker 4: psychedelic religion.
Speaker 1: And maybe the Last Supper was it was maybe it
Speaker 1: was edible to the idea that Christ's Last Supper was
Speaker 1: actually a pagan mystery ritual is not ni. In fact,
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King wrote a little known essey called The
Speaker 1: Influence of Mystery Religions on Christianity, positing the pagan continuity
Speaker 1: hypothesis that Christianity wasn't born in a vacuum, but bears
Speaker 1: a striking resemblance to pagan polytheistic traditions and rituals that
Speaker 1: occurred across the ancient world. One of the leading scholars
Speaker 1: who compares the Last Supper with prior pagan rituals is
Speaker 1: Dennis MacDonald, a theology professor at Claremont. He writes they
Speaker 1: eating flesh and drinking blood point to the Dionesian cult imagery,
Speaker 1: specifically the eating of the flesh and the blood of
Speaker 1: the God, and the immortality the initiates gain by such activity.
Speaker 1: He goes on to write that the cult of Dionysus
Speaker 1: famously involved two related rites, spiagmos and omophagia. The first,
Speaker 1: dismemberan was the ripping a part of living beasts. The second,
Speaker 1: eating raw flesh, was the placing of the fresh and
Speaker 1: bleeding meat to the lips, which some some ancient interpreters
Speaker 1: took to be a reenactment of the eating of the
Speaker 1: young Dionysus by the Titans. The participants celebrated Dionysus as
Speaker 1: the one who had survived death and thus was granted
Speaker 1: immortality as the Lord of souls. But even if you
Speaker 1: take the canonical description of the Last Supper at face
Speaker 1: value and say the Book of John, things can get
Speaker 1: kind of trippy. Take John six ' five three. Truly, truly,
Speaker 1: I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of
Speaker 1: the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have
Speaker 1: no life in you. The one who choose my flesh
Speaker 1: and drinks my blood has eternal life. This sounds very
Speaker 1: similar to the Eleusinian mystery rituals Brian Murray Rescue writes
Speaker 1: about in his book The Immortality Key. And this isn't
Speaker 1: even a gnostic text like the Gospel of Thomas. This
Speaker 1: is canonical New Testament.
Speaker 4: In religions, as let's take, particularly the three big monotheistic
Speaker 4: religions Christiana to Judaism and Islam, which basically all worshiped
Speaker 4: the same deity and the same prophets are recognized. These
Speaker 4: religions are all very very closely interlinked. All of them
Speaker 4: have officials who priests, Rabbis Muller's who interposed themselves between
Speaker 4: us and the divine experience. They tell us what the
Speaker 4: divine experience is, but we don't have the opportunity to
Speaker 4: have that experience ourselves. And the thing about psychedelics is
Speaker 4: that they provide a direct experience, a direct experience, not
Speaker 4: mediated by some official but an experience that you have yourself.
Speaker 4: And that seems to be what was going on in
Speaker 4: early Christianity, that people where Christ was seen more as
Speaker 4: a teacher than as the son of God. And what
Speaker 4: seems to have been going on is that early Christianity
Speaker 4: was very much a psychedelic religion. And it's really only
Speaker 4: when the Roman Catholic Church emerged and it starts oppressing people.
Speaker 4: And the very first people that oppressed were those other
Speaker 4: Christian sects that had used psychedelics.
Speaker 1: Any of the Council of Nicea in three twenty five,
Speaker 1: which sort of arbitrarily based on political reasons, kind of
Speaker 1: cuts down Christianity into an accepted canon that in many
Speaker 1: ways it discounts some of the more interesting books, like
Speaker 1: the Gospel of Thomas, that have to do with a
Speaker 1: single individual's ability to ascend into a more divine, divine state.
Speaker 4: That's right, you see The problem is that the state
Speaker 4: of consciousness that we have today that's dominant in our
Speaker 4: society today is what I call the alert, problem solving
Speaker 4: state of consciousness. This is the state of consciousness that
Speaker 4: our society values. So it's interesting when you look at
Speaker 4: the drugs that are legal in our society, that everybody
Speaker 4: has access to and that are often glorified.
Speaker 3: Alcohol is one of the drugs that our society has embraced. Well.
Speaker 4: I can understand why, because alcohol does not lead people
Speaker 4: to ask profound questions. It's like a little holiday from
Speaker 4: the problem solving state of consciousness.
Speaker 3: But that's all it is.
Speaker 4: But I just want to point out that what the
Speaker 4: psychedelics do is offer us much more than a break
Speaker 4: from that stuff. They offer access to a completely different
Speaker 4: state of consciousness. The other thing they do is they
Speaker 4: break very blocked and narrow ways of thinking. And that's
Speaker 4: what depression is. Depression is where you're locked into a
Speaker 4: state of mind that makes you extremely sad and unhappy
Speaker 4: and you can't escape from it, you know, And the
Speaker 4: pharmaceutical drugs like syroxat and prozac and things like that
Speaker 4: absolutely fucking useless in getting people out of depression. I
Speaker 4: speak from experience because I suffered from depression. So eventually,
Speaker 4: what I decided to do was just do a very
Speaker 4: gradual cutdown of the dose, and I used a razor
Speaker 4: blade to slice up the pills. I just cut it down,
Speaker 4: day by day over six months, until finally I was
Speaker 4: clear of that horrible medicine. At least I experienced it
Speaker 4: as a horrible medicine. Perhaps it helps some people, but honestly,
Speaker 4: the scientific studies that have been done suggest that placebos
Speaker 4: are just as effective as the SSRI antidepress and.
Speaker 1: It recently came out there's no correlation between serotonin deficiency
Speaker 1: and depression.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: And it's like, Okay, you're saying this now after fifty
Speaker 1: years exactly, we've.
Speaker 3: Been sold a myth, We've been sold a lie.
Speaker 4: And if we look at the world through a very
Speaker 4: narrow limited perspective, and all we're going to see is
Speaker 4: narrow limited things. The role of psychedelics is providing another
Speaker 4: lens that allows us to see a wider reality.
Speaker 1: Can I offer you a crazy theory and you can
Speaker 1: tell me if I'm not?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy three, Francis Kirk, who discovered the
Speaker 1: double heelical structure of DNA. Wrote a paper about.
Speaker 3: Directed Want a Nobel prize?
Speaker 1: Want a Nobel prize? You know, renowned scientist, he wrote
Speaker 1: a paper on directed pan spermy.
Speaker 3: If he did.
Speaker 4: He wrote a book that actually called life Itself. He
Speaker 4: wrote papers and.
Speaker 1: The book interesting. I didn't even know that.
Speaker 3: The book is a tough read. It was published in
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 4: Okay, but it's it's it's it's it's fascinating.
Speaker 3: And if I can just jump the gun.
Speaker 1: A yeeling, you probably know what I'm going to ask.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that Crick, the world's leading expert on DNA, came
Speaker 4: to the conclusion that DNA could not have evolved on
Speaker 4: this planet in the time available for it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: The classic model is that we have a sort of
Speaker 4: primeval soup the early Earth.
Speaker 3: The Earth forms about four.
Speaker 4: Point five billion years ago, four and a half thousand
Speaker 4: million years ago, and for the first six hundred million
Speaker 4: years it's too hot to support any life. Until about
Speaker 4: three point nine billion years ago it gets to the
Speaker 4: stage where it could support very basic life forms, and
Speaker 4: within one hundred million years of that, which across the
Speaker 4: span of millions of years, is a tiny amount of time.
Speaker 4: Within one hundred million years of that, by three point
Speaker 4: eight billion years ago, bacterial life was all over this planet.
Speaker 4: And Crick's view was as a leading scientist whose whole
Speaker 4: life was focused on the study of DNA, his life
Speaker 4: was that DNA could not have emerged accidentally from the
Speaker 4: primeval soup on this planet in just one hundred million years.
Speaker 4: It needed much longer. He still brought into the primeval
Speaker 4: soup idea, but not on this planet. Yes. What he
Speaker 4: came down to was that there must have been some
Speaker 4: other planet, somewhere else where a primeval soup had existed,
Speaker 4: and there had been enough time for DNA to emerge
Speaker 4: from the accidental bumping together of molecules. That's, by the way,
Speaker 4: something I'm a bit skeptical of anywhere. But nevertheless, that
Speaker 4: was Krick's point in life itself. And then he suggested that,
Speaker 4: you know, the universe is very old, at least thirteen
Speaker 4: and a half billion years old. There's time for life
Speaker 4: to have evolved elsewhere in the universe, and he suggested
Speaker 4: that what happened was that the first primitive bacteria continued
Speaker 4: to evolve on that distant planet orbiting another Sun on
Speaker 4: the other side of the universe, that life began to evolve,
Speaker 4: and eventually a highly developed civilization emerged on that planet.
Speaker 4: I'm not saying they looked anything like us. And by
Speaker 4: the way, I need to emphasize this is Qrick.
Speaker 3: This is not me.
Speaker 4: This is the Nobel Prize winning who's saying this. That
Speaker 4: life evolved on that planet, highly intelligent, sophisticated, advanced life form,
Speaker 4: and then they discovered that they faced certain doom that
Speaker 4: there was going to be He suggested a super and
Speaker 4: nova going off in their vicinity, which would strip.
Speaker 3: Their planet of all life.
Speaker 4: And to continue the quick story, he then said, well,
Speaker 4: the first thing they would have done was to figure
Speaker 4: could we get ourselves off the planet? Could we go
Speaker 4: colonize another planet? But the distances in interstellar space were
Speaker 4: too great for that to be feasible. So they did
Speaker 4: the next best thing. They genetically engineered bacteria. They incorporated
Speaker 4: the DNA code within those bacteria, and then they put
Speaker 4: the bacteria into cryogenic chambers in spaceships and fired them
Speaker 4: off in all directions.
Speaker 1: So it's an algae and CO two for food.
Speaker 4: And then yeah, you know, and we know that bacteria
Speaker 4: extremophiles can survive in extremely dire circumstances and fired them
Speaker 4: off into the early universe and cut a long story short,
Speaker 4: three point nine billion years ago, one of those spaceships
Speaker 4: collided with the early Earth, spilled out its contents of bacteria,
Speaker 4: and there you have it. Life begins to evolve on
Speaker 4: this planet, and it contains the DNA code that came
Speaker 4: from another planet.
Speaker 1: And fungal DNA is more similar to human DNA than
Speaker 1: plant is fascinating, which is pretty.
Speaker 4: Fungi are amazing things which are which which are kind
Speaker 4: of halfway between the animal and the plant world. They're
Speaker 4: most most most curious and incredible things. So so that
Speaker 4: was Krick's suggestion, and I don't think it's a wild suggestion,
Speaker 4: particularly bearing in mind who it comes from.
Speaker 3: God.
Speaker 4: He stuck his neck out in proposing something like that,
Speaker 4: you know, because there's a huge lobby behind behind the
Speaker 4: natural selection, the and the Darwinian model. He wasn't stepping
Speaker 4: away from the Darwinian but he was trying to solve
Speaker 4: an anomaly. He couldn't understand how DNA could have formed
Speaker 4: accidentally in just one hundred million years.
Speaker 1: Well, it almost feels like human evolution. Their gaps in
Speaker 1: human evolution and evolutionary biologists like to say they have
Speaker 1: these placeholder words like punctuated equilibria, but if you really
Speaker 1: look at you know, I think like the stoned ape theory,
Speaker 1: for example, the doubling and cranial size between two million
Speaker 1: years ago and three hundred thousand years ago. And then
Speaker 1: the emergence of culture, which you and Brian are rescue
Speaker 1: talk about. A possible explanation for the emergence of culture,
Speaker 1: which I want to get your take on is a
Speaker 1: lot of people say specialization and culture inevitably comes from
Speaker 1: having more time. Because you have agriculture. You have talked
Speaker 1: about sort of a transfer of technology maybe from an
Speaker 1: antecedent civilization. What if you're planting wheat, barley and rye.
Speaker 1: Those were like the original sort of things in the
Speaker 1: agricultural revolution. Ergot grows on those things, and so what
Speaker 1: if there is you know this, it's almost like the
Speaker 1: ergod is like a particular.
Speaker 4: Kind of gods cleviceps, paspali somewhergots are deadly toxic, but
Speaker 4: it happens that the one that grows on marley is
Speaker 4: not toxic, and it is soluble in water, so it
Speaker 4: can be turned into a book.
Speaker 1: Interesting, So what if the consumption of that is what
Speaker 1: spurred all these ideas that have sort of created a
Speaker 1: lot of modern civilism.
Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly the case that I made in my
Speaker 4: two thousand and five book Supernatural. It's exactly the case
Speaker 4: that Brian's taken much further in his What twenty and
Speaker 4: twenty one book The Immortology. Key that it was and
Speaker 4: somebody else we have to recognize. No, it's the late
Speaker 4: great Terrence McKenna. Oh, yeah, of course, Terrence McKenna was
Speaker 4: a key thinker in this field. But I would recommend
Speaker 4: to anybody who's listening his book Food of the Gods
Speaker 4: was one of the first books to suggest that this
Speaker 4: quantum leap forward in human behavior and in human consciousness
Speaker 4: was entirely the result of experimenting with psychedelics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he and mckenneth thinks that he talks about
Speaker 1: a mushroom trip where the mushrooms say to him, within
Speaker 1: my memory exist the blueprints for hyper light drives.
Speaker 3: I believe that.
Speaker 4: God left certain drugs growing naturally upon our.
Speaker 1: Planet to help speed up and facilitate our evolution. If
Speaker 1: you think about it, if you have an alien civilization.
Speaker 1: Would you present yourself as a hominid cre like a
Speaker 1: foreign invader, dominid creature, or where you subtly merge with
Speaker 1: the higher hominid creature, affect their thinking and hitchhike your way.
Speaker 3: I think you go for subtle, subtle merging.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is where again shamanism has much to
Speaker 4: teach Western Western science, because shamans need to be taken
Speaker 4: seriously when they say that the plants and the fung
Speaker 4: guy are teachers.
Speaker 3: And that's a very mysterious thing.
Speaker 4: Anybody who's had deep psychedelic journey will know that they
Speaker 4: get teachings in that journey, and those teachings generally refer
Speaker 4: to their own lives and their own behavior and how
Speaker 4: they behaved. It's very odd that a mushroom or a
Speaker 4: mixture of two plants from the Amazon should cause us
Speaker 4: to evaluate our behavior and should teach us that maybe
Speaker 4: we've been doing stuff wrong that we need to adjust
Speaker 4: and put right in the future. I myself have had
Speaker 4: a creative gift from psychedelics, and that was back in
Speaker 4: two thousand and six, drinking ayahuasca in Brazil over a
Speaker 4: series of five sessions, I was given literally given the
Speaker 4: entire plot of a novel.
Speaker 3: I'd never written a novel before.
Speaker 4: That's crazy, But I was given the entire plot of
Speaker 4: a novel, which I eventually and at the end of
Speaker 4: those sessions, I got a very clear message from the
Speaker 4: entity that I call Mother Ayahuasca. And factly, I don't
Speaker 4: care if scientists roll their eyes.
Speaker 3: If you're going to roll your.
Speaker 4: Eyes at the notion of Mother Ayahuasca, go drink some
Speaker 4: my Aahuaska and then see.
Speaker 3: If you're going to roll your eye. I was.
Speaker 4: I was given the gift of a story, and I
Speaker 4: was given a very strong instruction write it, did you?
Speaker 3: And I did? And I wrote it.
Speaker 4: It's called Entangled It and it features a young woman
Speaker 4: twenty four thousand years ago and a young woman today
Speaker 4: who are entangled across time in a battle of good
Speaker 4: against evil. And there's a demonic force that is that
Speaker 4: is traveling through time and that is twisting humanity out
Speaker 4: of our true mission. And their job is to stop
Speaker 4: that force, both in the Stone Age and today.
Speaker 1: Do you consider yourself gnostic or what? What would you?
Speaker 1: Because if I would religious, I'm not. I don't and
Speaker 1: in many ways you're anti.
Speaker 3: I'm not a Christian. I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't belong to any religion. If I were to
Speaker 4: put myself in a category, I would say Gnostic is
Speaker 4: the right category. I wrote a book with Robert Baval
Speaker 4: back in the nineties, Talisman, and of course the Gnostics
Speaker 4: were amongst the first people to be burnt at the
Speaker 4: stake when the Roman Catholic Church, as I put it,
Speaker 4: pulled on the jackbooked boot of the Roman state and
Speaker 4: began to persecute its competitors.
Speaker 1: And you talk about almost in that book a through
Speaker 1: line of Gnosticism in the form of these sort of
Speaker 1: small cobbalistic I.
Speaker 3: Believe it's continued. I believe it's continued.
Speaker 4: The message has not just evaporated, but it's gone underground,
Speaker 4: and it's been and it's been transmitted through various lines,
Speaker 4: and in some cases those lines may not even know
Speaker 4: what they're transmitting anymore.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Yeah, So it's like in the past you'd
Speaker 1: have the templars of the Rescrutions or the Freemasons, and
Speaker 1: now there's like a hermetic transfer without a real exoteric
Speaker 1: organization even exists.
Speaker 4: Yes, it can, it can be passed down that in
Speaker 4: that way, I would say Freemasonry is an interesting example.
Speaker 4: Not a Freemason myself, I'm not. I don't join clubs,
Speaker 4: and I'm not a member of that club, and I
Speaker 4: never will be a member of that club.
Speaker 1: Our friend Randall Carlson rand is a Freemason.
Speaker 4: And I have I have spoken in Masonic lodges. I've
Speaker 4: been asked to give lectures and I've happily done. So
Speaker 4: I'll give a lecture to anybody who's interested in hearing
Speaker 4: what I've got to say. I've spoken several times in
Speaker 4: Masonic lodges. Through a mutual friend, I know an archaeologist
Speaker 4: who actually teaches at the University of Exeter in the
Speaker 4: UK who's been involved in led our work in Columbia.
Speaker 4: They have they have identified what they're certain is an
Speaker 4: enormous pyramid in the middle of the Amazon rainforest.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: And the next step is to put a team out
Speaker 4: there and actually see it on the ground.
Speaker 1: Well, that's cool. Are you going to go and check
Speaker 1: it out?
Speaker 3: You bet, I'm going to go if I get If
Speaker 3: I get the chance.
Speaker 1: I'd go with you. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And you wrote a book called The Sign and the Seal.
Speaker 1: I did about the Arc of the Covenant and so.
Speaker 4: And that was my first venture into what shall we
Speaker 4: call historical mystery. And in Ethiopia I came across this
Speaker 4: really quite by chance. I found myself in the city
Speaker 4: of Axum, in t gray and northern Ethiopian and there
Speaker 4: were some strange processions going on and wonderful music and
Speaker 4: dancing and rituals being performed. And I asked, what's this
Speaker 4: all about, and they said, well, we have the we
Speaker 4: have the Ark of the Covenant here, and these these
Speaker 4: ceremonials are in honor of the of the Ark of
Speaker 4: the Covenant. And you've got the Ark of the Covenant here.
Speaker 3: I've just seen Raiders of the Lost Arc. You've got
Speaker 3: the Ark of the Covenant here.
Speaker 4: Where they And they said, well, it's in that enclosure.
Speaker 4: And there's a huge religious enclosure in the heart of
Speaker 4: Aksum which contains a sixteenth century church church of Saint
Speaker 4: Mary of Zion, and beside it a little chapel, and
Speaker 4: it's in that chapel that the Ethiopians claim the Arc
Speaker 4: is kept. And this is not a minor issue for Ethiopians.
Speaker 4: This is a very major issue for them. It's fundamental
Speaker 4: to Ethiopian culture. There's something that a lot of people
Speaker 4: don't understand. And it's kind of odd because the arc
Speaker 4: of the Covenant is a pre Christian relic and Ethiopia
Speaker 4: is largely a Christian country. Why is Ethiopian Christianity, which
Speaker 4: is very Old Testament in its form, very a New
Speaker 4: Testament in its form, Why is it but still calling
Speaker 4: itself Christianity? Why is it venerating a pre Christian, non
Speaker 4: Christian relic that belongs to Old Testament times. So I
Speaker 4: began to do my own investigation, and my own investigation
Speaker 4: included a lot of time spent with the indigenous Ethiopian Jews.
Speaker 4: This is something, again that's not widely known, but there
Speaker 4: has been, going back into remote prehistory, a Judaic community
Speaker 4: in Ethiopia, and in Ethiopia they're known as the Plashes.
Speaker 4: They refer to themselves as the Beta Israel, the House
Speaker 4: of Israel, and they say that their ancestors brought the
Speaker 4: Ark of the Covenant to Ethiopia. And it happened in
Speaker 4: this way that first of all, their ancestors lived on
Speaker 4: an island in the Nile, and they lived there for
Speaker 4: some hundreds of years. Well that's the first thing I checked.
Speaker 4: Was there ever a Jewish community on an island in
Speaker 4: the Nile.
Speaker 3: Yes, there was on the island.
Speaker 4: Of Elephantine, opposite the modern city of Assouan in Upper Egypt,
Speaker 4: around six hundred and fifty BC.
Speaker 3: The general story is that.
Speaker 4: The ark was stolen by the Babylonians about sixty years
Speaker 4: later in five hundred and eighty seven BC. But the
Speaker 4: Babylonians have no records of the Ark of the Covenant.
Speaker 4: They were ferocious bureaucrats, and they kept detailed records of
Speaker 4: everything they stole from the Temple of Jerusalem, didn't include
Speaker 4: the ark. The ark logically was gone before the Babylonians
Speaker 4: ever got there. And suddenly the Falacias story of their
Speaker 4: ancestors living on an island in the Nile starts to
Speaker 4: make sense. And then I go in further into it,
Speaker 4: and I discovered that around four hundred BC, there was
Speaker 4: conflict between that Jewish community and the Egyptians. The conflict
Speaker 4: was because the island of Elephantine was dedicated to the
Speaker 4: god Khnum, and the Egyptian god Knum is a ram
Speaker 4: headed deity, and the Jewish community on that island were
Speaker 4: sacrificing rams and this and again this is historically established.
Speaker 4: They were thrown out. They were they were driven out.
Speaker 4: There's no evidence that they were massacred. They were just
Speaker 4: driven out of that island. And that's where it connects
Speaker 4: with the flash of stories that their ancestors were driven
Speaker 4: out of that island and they then followed the Nile
Speaker 4: river system. They did not go north through a hostile Egypt.
Speaker 4: They went south and they the Nile, of course, divides
Speaker 4: into two branches, the Blue Nile and the White Nile.
Speaker 4: The White Nile rises in Uganda, the Blue Nile rises
Speaker 4: in Lake Tana in Ethiopia. And Lake Tana in Ethiopia
Speaker 4: is the center, the absolute center of the area in
Speaker 4: which the Ethiopian Jews live.
Speaker 3: Wow, and and suddenly it.
Speaker 4: All began to make sense interesting, you know, and and
Speaker 4: and and and and could be stood up as a
Speaker 4: reasonable I never saw the object that is called the
Speaker 4: arc itself. And maybe that's just as well, because the
Speaker 4: guardians of the art and get sick and die very
Speaker 4: very rapidly.
Speaker 1: You said that he said that people come out with
Speaker 1: burns on their.
Speaker 3: They typically get cataracts.
Speaker 4: They get blinded by cataracts, which is something that happens
Speaker 4: with radiation damage.
Speaker 1: But your narrative of the Ark of the Covenant would
Speaker 1: preclude the templars guarding it because they were later.
Speaker 3: Well, well, no, it wouldn't.
Speaker 4: Actually in this sense that I came across a great
Speaker 4: Scottish traveler called James Bruce of Kinnaird, and James Bruce
Speaker 4: wrote a book in the seventeen eighties or nineties called
Speaker 4: Travels to Discover the Source of the Nile and in
Speaker 4: which he claimed to have discovered the source of the
Speaker 4: Blue Nile or near Lake Tana. What's puzzling about that
Speaker 4: is he already knew of a Portuguese priest who'd put
Speaker 4: that together sixty years before. And James Bruce had a
Speaker 4: powerful intro in the Ark of the Covenant and was
Speaker 4: present in Axam during the ceremony of Timcat when replicas
Speaker 4: of the Ark of the Covenant are brought out, And
Speaker 4: I began to get very interested in his story, and
Speaker 4: I became convinced, although I couldn't prove it, that he
Speaker 4: had been a Freemason, and that he was his free
Speaker 4: Masonic interest.
Speaker 3: That had taken him to Ethiopia. Let's not forget that
Speaker 3: James Bruce brought something back from Ethiopia. He brought back
Speaker 3: the Book of Enoch.
Speaker 4: Wow, we would not have the Book of Enoch, and
Speaker 4: it hadn't been for that Scottish traveler getting a copy
Speaker 4: of it written in the Ethiopian sacred language of gas
Speaker 4: and having it then translated.
Speaker 1: Ancient alien abduction story if I've ever heard.
Speaker 4: The Book of Enoch was a lost book until but
Speaker 4: it had been preserved in Ethiopia and James Bruce found.
Speaker 3: It and brought it brought.
Speaker 4: It back to Europe. But I thought, what could have
Speaker 4: motivated him? And could he have been a freemason? And
Speaker 4: I began to look into this and I couldn't find
Speaker 4: evidence for it. I went to his grave, which is
Speaker 4: in a little churchyard in Scotland near Foco. That the
Speaker 4: grave was in a state of disrepair, but that the
Speaker 4: obelisk that had stood over the grave was lying on
Speaker 4: its side in the car park, and it was clear
Speaker 4: that something was going on. So I went to the
Speaker 4: keeper of the church and I asked him about this
Speaker 4: and he said, oh, yes, we're restoring the grave of
Speaker 4: James Bruce right now and the obelisk will be re
Speaker 4: erected there. And I said who's funding this? And he said, well,
Speaker 4: it's the Earl of Elgin. Oh how interesting those were
Speaker 4: the days when you could pick up the phone and
Speaker 4: call an earl. And I did that in the probably
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety when we're searching the sign and the seal.
Speaker 3: I called the Broomhill estate where the Earl of Elgin lives, and.
Speaker 4: He answered the phone. And I said, look, this may
Speaker 4: seem very odd to you, but I'm a journalist and
Speaker 4: i'm investigating the story of James Bruce of Kinnair, and
Speaker 4: I understand you have an interest in him. Can I
Speaker 4: come and talk to you about him? And he said, gruffly,
Speaker 4: I'll give you half an hour. He gave me five
Speaker 4: and my wife Santha and I went to his place,
Speaker 4: his estate, and we sat down and talked to him,
Speaker 4: and at the end of it, rather nervously, I said, look,
Speaker 4: I've been working on this theory that James Bruce was
Speaker 4: a Freemason, but I can't stand it up.
Speaker 3: I can't prove it.
Speaker 4: He said, my dear boy, of course he was a freeman.
Speaker 4: And he gave me the lodge, the Kilwinning Lodge.
Speaker 3: Number two in Edinburgh, that James Bruce was a member of.
Speaker 4: And more than that, he was a speculative freemason. It
Speaker 4: was interested in the esoteric side of freemasonry, and so
Speaker 4: his journey to Ethiopia I think was very strongly connected
Speaker 4: to the Ark of the Covenant. Now we come to
Speaker 4: the Templars and the templar connection with freemasonry, and the
Speaker 4: fact that the speculation that I put in the Sign
Speaker 4: and the Seal that Templars had gone to Ethiopia in
Speaker 4: search of the Ark of the Covenant. There was a
Speaker 4: time when an Ethiopian prince whose name was Lali Bella,
Speaker 4: was an exile in Jerusalem, and that was during the Crusades,
Speaker 4: when the Templars held the whole Temple Mount. The Alaxa
Speaker 4: Mosque was their palace. The Temple Mount was there at
Speaker 4: exactly the time that an Ethiopian prince exiled was present
Speaker 4: in Jerusalem. I speculated that he tipped the Templars off
Speaker 4: that the Ark of the Covenant was in Ethiopia.
Speaker 3: And weirdly, Lalabella then.
Speaker 4: Went back to Ethiopia with a strange force of people
Speaker 4: who installed him on the throne of Ethiopia who sound
Speaker 4: like foreigners, not Ethiopians, and then he created these incredible
Speaker 4: churches which are the rock hewn churches of Lalibela, one
Speaker 4: of which has a Templar cross painted on its ceiling
Speaker 4: and an image of the Alaxa Mosque with a cross
Speaker 4: on top of it, which only happened when the Templars
Speaker 4: were using it as their palace. So I began to
Speaker 4: see a possible connection here that the Templars did have
Speaker 4: a long term interest in this object, that they had
Speaker 4: learnt some intelligence about it during their stay in Jerusalem,
Speaker 4: and that they'd followed that intelligence to Ethiopia, put Laalibala
Speaker 4: back on the throne, and been involved in the construction
Speaker 4: of his amazing churches.
Speaker 3: All speculations.
Speaker 1: Of course, that's fascina interesting speculation, but you've made a
Speaker 1: lot of pretty compelling connections. There's so many examples of
Speaker 1: anomalous megalithic architecture. It's almost so much that it's not
Speaker 1: even anomalousts anymore that you show in your docuseries. And
Speaker 1: you've speculated that these things aren't built using kind of
Speaker 1: modern engineering techniques they're used. They're built used using kind
Speaker 1: of ancient engineering.
Speaker 4: Techniques, techniques and technologies that we don't know about, we
Speaker 4: haven't we haven't used.
Speaker 3: Now it's very important to emphasize that this is speculation.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not fact.
Speaker 4: Yes, I think, I suggest I speculate that we have
Speaker 4: allowed innate, some innate human abilities to fall into disuse,
Speaker 4: to lapse. Not only that, but we've actually we've actually
Speaker 4: come to despise those who think that such abilities exist.
Speaker 4: So it's almost the same as saying you're in the
Speaker 4: lunatic fringe if you say that you believe that telepathy
Speaker 4: and telepathy.
Speaker 1: We're hard to control if you have those abilities, well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they ignore work.
Speaker 4: For example, somebody you should talk to is perhaps you
Speaker 4: have is Dr Rupert Sheldrake.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, huge fan.
Speaker 4: He's incredibly important, out of the box thinker and mainstream scientists.
Speaker 3: He's a highly qualified scientist, and.
Speaker 1: All his protocols for the morphic field experiments are very rigorous.
Speaker 3: They're very rigorous.
Speaker 4: He's done very detailed work on, for example, telephone telepathy.
Speaker 4: How is it that so many of us hear the
Speaker 4: phone ring and we know already or we're already thinking
Speaker 4: about the individual cause it's a universal human experience exactly.
Speaker 1: And that's every people discount their own phenomenology for a dogma,
Speaker 1: which is like if you were to poll nine people
Speaker 1: out of ten on the street, and they have you
Speaker 1: experienced that? Everybody's yeah, I've found that, expert, but that's
Speaker 1: not real. It's exactly why.
Speaker 3: Because the high priests of science have told us that
Speaker 3: we mustn't believe.
Speaker 4: In exactly whereas in fact, Rupert's work shows that these
Speaker 4: abilities do exist, that human beings do have the ability
Speaker 4: for telepathy. I don't know if he's done work on telekinesis,
Speaker 4: where where objects are moved directly with the power of
Speaker 4: the mind, rather than using a machine.
Speaker 3: Or a late lever to move them.
Speaker 4: But that's kind of telekinesis that I'm suggesting to say
Speaker 4: that the ancient Egyptians moved two hundred ton blocks of
Speaker 4: stone on wet sand. Okay, at ground level, that's fine.
Speaker 4: But to move two hundred ton blocks of stone three
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty feet in the air, and to build
Speaker 4: them into a chamber in the heart of the Great Pyramid,
Speaker 4: that is another matter. So I think it's perfectly natural
Speaker 4: and reasonable to speculate them they may have been using
Speaker 4: some ability or some technolology that we have not embraced
Speaker 4: and that we do not understand, and that if we
Speaker 4: had not become so dependent on mechanical advantage and leverage,
Speaker 4: we might have been doing things a very different way.
Speaker 4: There are a number of ancient Egyptian traditions that speak
Speaker 4: of the priests levitating these large blocks, and this is
Speaker 4: accompanied by sound chanting music has played and it plays
Speaker 4: a part in the lifting up of the blocks. A
Speaker 4: number of traditions about this which I think perhaps deserve
Speaker 4: to be taken more seriously than they have been, not
Speaker 4: necessarily fantastical tales. Having climbed the Great Pyramid five times,
Speaker 4: having seen the majesty of its construction and the intricacy
Speaker 4: of its construction, I'm persuaded that we're dealing with something
Speaker 4: we don't fully understand, and better to admit that rather
Speaker 4: than come up with these pure speculations that are the
Speaker 4: work of Egyptologists, just as I'm speculating that it was
Speaker 4: telepathy or telechinosis.
Speaker 1: But the frame should be speculating versus speculation, not.
Speaker 4: Ye speculation versus speculation, rather than saying this is established fact,
Speaker 4: because it isn't. It isn't established fact, and you know,
Speaker 4: then we have to come to grips with other aspects
Speaker 4: of the Great Pyramid which I often talk about, which
Speaker 4: are also neglected by Egyptology, which is it's extremely precise
Speaker 4: alignment to true north. That on a six million ton
Speaker 4: monument with a thirty acre footprint is no easy task
Speaker 4: to It involves astronomy. It involves precise astronomy.
Speaker 1: The figure is, isn't it mapped to Orion's belt in
Speaker 1: some way?
Speaker 3: Well, that's another that's another very important issue.
Speaker 4: And this is the work of my great friend and
Speaker 4: colleague Robert Bavar, who came up with the Orion correlation
Speaker 4: theory in nineteen ninety four in his book The Orion Mystery.
Speaker 4: He was the first person to notice that the three
Speaker 4: Great Pyramids on the Giza Plateau a stunningly similar pattern
Speaker 4: to the three stars of the belt of Orion. And
Speaker 4: Orion is not just any constellation in the ancient Egyptian system.
Speaker 3: Orion is the god of Cyrus in the sky.
Speaker 4: That's that's the celestial figure of a riot of the
Speaker 4: constellation that we call Orion was the celestial figure of
Speaker 4: the god of Cyrus in the sky to the ancient Egyptians.
Speaker 3: So not only do they do.
Speaker 4: They model the belt stars of that constellation, but that
Speaker 4: constellation is also an important one to the ancient Egyptians,
Speaker 4: and there's been so many bogus attempts to discredit Robert's
Speaker 4: important work.
Speaker 1: On the human soult is supposed to come through rans.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yes, yes, the right.
Speaker 4: And that's that's a curious worldwide tradition because you find
Speaker 4: that in America too, in the mand builder cultures in America,
Speaker 4: there was the belief that the soul enters the afterlife
Speaker 4: journey through the constellation of Orion.
Speaker 3: The ancient Egyptians believed in a in.
Speaker 4: A whole after life realm through which we through which
Speaker 4: we travel, and the constellation of Orian plays a plays
Speaker 4: a key role in that.
Speaker 3: They called this. They called this realm the Duat.
Speaker 4: And as we die in this world, we enter that
Speaker 4: world and we make a journey and we will be
Speaker 4: and it's a hazardous journey and we need to be
Speaker 4: prepared for it in advance. That's one of the reasons
Speaker 4: I think psychedelics were used in ancient Egypt as part
Speaker 4: of preparation for this after death journey. Then you realize
Speaker 4: that it's not just the Giza Pyramids, that the Pyramids
Speaker 4: of dash Sure, the Red Pyramid and the Bent Pyramid
Speaker 4: are also part of the diagram moving up into the
Speaker 4: constellation of Taurus. There's there's it looks like a whole
Speaker 4: stellar landscape was mapped on the ground at Giza.
Speaker 3: It's a it's a much bigger picture.
Speaker 4: And again it's unfortunate that Egyptology hasn't been willing to
Speaker 4: engage with this.
Speaker 3: He just wants to write it off.
Speaker 4: I think it has a lot to do with Egyptologists
Speaker 4: being entirely ignorant in astronomy, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. Also analogous to all of the work
Speaker 1: that you do, and and you document a lot of
Speaker 1: this as well around human history being so much older.
Speaker 1: Is this precocious knowledge of the stars that these ancient
Speaker 1: civilizations seems to have, Like like you look at Sumerian
Speaker 1: artifacts that show a heliocentric universe thousands of.
Speaker 3: Years atronomers the the universe was.
Speaker 4: And then you have to ask yourself that knowledge system
Speaker 4: that manifests in the Sumerians did not begin with the Sumerians.
Speaker 3: That's something that goes back much further.
Speaker 4: It's a it's a it's a universal in my view,
Speaker 4: it's a universal human legacy from a lost civilization of
Speaker 4: prehistoric antiquity, passed around, passed all around the world.
Speaker 1: And maybe they came from the stars or something, because I.
Speaker 3: Don't need to go there, and and i've I've never found.
Speaker 1: That's like an Eric.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't, I didn't. I don't need to go
Speaker 3: where Eric goes. I think Eric. I know Eric, and
Speaker 3: I think he did.
Speaker 4: I think he did a good job of alerting people
Speaker 4: to mystery in the past.
Speaker 3: But I personally think that the answer.
Speaker 4: He came up with, and it was ancient aliens in
Speaker 4: high tech spacecraft who came here.
Speaker 3: I think that's an unnecessary argument.
Speaker 4: In order to explain the anomalies that we confront, and
Speaker 4: I think a much more elegant and much simpler explanation
Speaker 4: is a lost human civilization of the Ice Age, which
Speaker 4: was destroyed in the global cataclysm of the Younger Dryers,
Speaker 4: which had survivors, and those survivors.
Speaker 3: Found ways to pass their knowledge down to the future.
Speaker 4: And that's the period that the period that we call
Speaker 4: the Younger Dryers is the period that the ancient Egyptians
Speaker 4: called zep Tepi the first time.
Speaker 3: They call it the first time.
Speaker 4: And that's where they say all their knowledge came from.
Speaker 4: So I don't seek to divorce the ancient Egyptians from
Speaker 4: the Great Pyramid of Giza. The ancient Egyptians were definitely
Speaker 4: involved in the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza.
Speaker 4: But I think the Great Pyramid of Giza sits on
Speaker 4: top of something much older, and part of it is
Speaker 4: the subterranean chamber one hundred feet vertically beneath the base
Speaker 4: of the Great Pyramid. I think that's the original sacred
Speaker 4: site on the Giza Plateau.
Speaker 1: And the Sphinx, according to people like you and Robert Shock,
Speaker 1: has water damage of the line.
Speaker 4: Monuments of the Giza Plateau are multiple and very complex,
Speaker 4: and in the case of the pyramids, I do accept
Speaker 4: that the ancient Egyptians were directly involved in completing the
Speaker 4: monuments as we see them now, but they were building
Speaker 4: on the more ancient structures.
Speaker 3: But there are.
Speaker 4: Structures on the Giza Plateau, and the Great Sphinx is
Speaker 4: one of them, which are clearly much older Robert Shock's work.
Speaker 4: Let's put that in its proper context. I do want
Speaker 4: to pay tribute to Robert Shock because it's one of
Speaker 4: the few academics who's been willing to stick his neck
Speaker 4: out and suggest that the Great Sphinx, that that enigmatic
Speaker 4: monument from the ancient world is more than twelve thousand
Speaker 4: years old, not four and a half thousand years old,
Speaker 4: as Egyptologists tell us. The evidence for that was initially
Speaker 4: proposed by John Anthony West, who was the first to
Speaker 4: draw wide scale public attention to the possibility that the
Speaker 4: Sphinx bore evidence of water weathering, and Robert Shock.
Speaker 3: John West brought Robert Shock.
Speaker 4: To the Giza Plateau as a geologist, and Robert Schock
Speaker 4: took a very detailed and careful look at it and
Speaker 4: concluded that what we're looking at on the Sphinx, and
Speaker 4: it is particularly evidence on the trench surrounding the Sphinx,
Speaker 4: is precipitation induced weathering, weathering that was caused by heavy,
Speaker 4: heavy rainfall, not a flood that washed over the Giza Plateau, but.
Speaker 3: Extremely heavy rainfall.
Speaker 4: And the world's climate has changed dramatically several times, and
Speaker 4: that dramatic climate change that was the Younger Dryass between
Speaker 4: twelve eight hundred and eleven six hundred years ago, which
Speaker 4: brought freezing temperatures further north, resulted in heavy rainfall in
Speaker 4: the Sahara Desert and over Egypt. And that's the period
Speaker 4: when the geology says that the Great Sphinx was made
Speaker 4: and like the Pyramids, the ancient Egyptians cannot be divorced
Speaker 4: from the Great Sphinx. The very fact that the Sphinx
Speaker 4: has the head of a pharaoh tells us that the
Speaker 4: ancient Egyptians were involved in it. But what we think,
Speaker 4: when I say we the late Great John Anthony West,
Speaker 4: Robert Sharp, myself and a number of others think is
Speaker 4: that the Great Sphinx, Mano Safe is another man who's
Speaker 4: doing really important work on this, and he's fluent in
Speaker 4: ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs as well. The argument is that the
Speaker 4: Great Sphinx was originally a lion, totally a lion, not
Speaker 4: just a lion body with a human head, but a
Speaker 4: lion body with a lion head.
Speaker 1: So the pharaoh aspect, well.
Speaker 4: Yes, originally it was a prehistoric sphinx was a lion,
Speaker 4: and then the lion head became heavily eroded and damaged
Speaker 4: as thousands of years passed, and in the time of
Speaker 4: the Pharaohs, it was transformed. It was cut down and
Speaker 4: remade into the human head that we see on it today,
Speaker 4: wearing the classic Nemes headdress of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh.
Speaker 4: But the fact that that Nemes headdress and the head
Speaker 4: of some pharaoh, not necessarily cufrey, is found on the
Speaker 4: Great Sphinx speaks to later remodeling by the ancient Egyptians.
Speaker 4: It doesn't deal at all with the issue of the
Speaker 4: precipitationduced weathering that says that the whole site is actually
Speaker 4: much older. So just as the ancient Egyptians were involved
Speaker 4: in completing the Great Pyramids, which I do not dispute,
Speaker 4: they were also involved in the Great Sphinx, but they
Speaker 4: found it already present on the Giza plateau.
Speaker 1: Do you believe not just in Atlantis, but in civilizational cycles?
Speaker 1: So in many esoteric traditions, you know there would be
Speaker 1: different sort of races or civilizational cycles, like the Hyperboreans,
Speaker 1: the Lamurians, the Atlanteans.
Speaker 3: Do I've not needed to go that far.
Speaker 4: I think I've had enough of a challenge to deal
Speaker 4: with making the case for one loss civilization without seeking
Speaker 4: that to make the case for multiple loss civilizations. But
Speaker 4: I'm not writing that off as.
Speaker 1: A possibility might require you looking at the arc of
Speaker 1: the Covenant.
Speaker 4: I think that that's to me, that's a bridge too far,
Speaker 4: which I've focused all my efforts on trying to make
Speaker 4: this case and to make it in a way that
Speaker 4: makes sense to people and that is supported by evidence.
Speaker 4: It's clear that civilization is cyclical, that things come and go,
Speaker 4: great civilizations rise and fall. It was only in the
Speaker 4: nineteen twenties or the nineteen thirties that we became aware
Speaker 4: of the existence of such a thing as the Indus
Speaker 4: Vali civilization, which is along the banks of the Indus
Speaker 4: River in Pakistan. Maijadero and Harappa were unknown sites in
Speaker 4: the nineteen twenties.
Speaker 3: It was only an accidental.
Speaker 4: Discovery railway workers building a railway line that actually led
Speaker 4: to that, and then the dating of it five thousand
Speaker 4: plus years old is extraordinarily sophisticated. Civilization that existed along
Speaker 4: the Indus River was totally unknown. It was a lost civilization.
Speaker 4: We still haven't learnt to read its.
Speaker 3: Language, although they had a written language.
Speaker 4: So civilizations can get lost, civilizations can rise and can fall.
Speaker 4: It happened again and again, and I'm really only saying
Speaker 4: that that maybe happened much earlier, from a time that
Speaker 4: we've forgotten.
Speaker 1: And in Supernatural you talk about shifting a little to aliens,
Speaker 1: because you talk about that a lot on the show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you talk about modern abductions and UFO sightings.
Speaker 3: Now we're getting onto a subject I'm happy to talk about.
Speaker 4: Let's do it because because I I think that the
Speaker 4: physical aliens coming here in spaceships or flying saucers from
Speaker 4: from other planets is fundamentally it's it's a it's a
Speaker 4: materialist proposition. It's it's about tech and about material things.
Speaker 1: Like the Elon Musk worldview. It's not yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: consciousness world.
Speaker 4: It's not, it's not a consciousness worldview. What was what
Speaker 4: was striking to me was a conversation I had with
Speaker 4: the late Pablo ama Ringo, an Amazonian shaman who did
Speaker 4: who painted his visions after he'd been on the Ayahuasca journey.
Speaker 4: He would sit down and created thousands of beautiful, beautiful paintings,
Speaker 4: and in many of those paintings there are flying sorcers.
Speaker 4: So I said to Pablo, is this I basically said,
Speaker 4: is this ancient aliens you're talking about? Are those spaceships
Speaker 4: that have come from other planets? And he said, no,
Speaker 4: those are vehicles for entering and leaving the spirit world.
Speaker 4: And when a chaman talks about the spirit world, that
Speaker 4: shaman is talking about what quantum physicists would call a parallel,
Speaker 4: parallel dimension or a parallel realm. And I'm not denying
Speaker 4: that there are physical elements to the Upho experience. There
Speaker 4: certainly are. They do show up in radar traces here
Speaker 4: and there. There are physical elements to it, but exactly
Speaker 4: what they are is not yet clear. Are they, as
Speaker 4: Pablo said, vehicles for entering and leaving.
Speaker 3: Let's put it in modern language, a parallel realm, a parallel.
Speaker 4: Universe, rather than vehicles to take us across interstellar space
Speaker 4: in this universe. And then you come down to the
Speaker 4: consciousness issue, You come down to the fact. And I
Speaker 4: document this at length in Supernatural. The inspiration for the
Speaker 4: idea came from Jacques Valais.
Speaker 1: I want to give him credit, Ie digit you.
Speaker 4: Know, there's something deeper that creates the illusion of space
Speaker 4: and time in humans. I've never met Jack Lay, admiration
Speaker 4: for him because his book Passport to Magonia was a
Speaker 4: breakthrough book and anybody who's interested in the alien Upho
Speaker 4: mystery needs to go read Passport to Magonia. And I
Speaker 4: quoted from it extensively in Supernatural, published in two thousand
Speaker 4: and five. He was the first to recognize that there
Speaker 4: are incredible phenomenological parallels between the entities that were called
Speaker 4: fairies and elves in the Middle Ages and the entities
Speaker 4: that we call aliens todayish parallels.
Speaker 3: Those fairies and elves would.
Speaker 4: Do surgery on people, they would abduct people, they would
Speaker 4: have sex with people, they would produce hybrid babies, and
Speaker 4: then go into spirits and the whole issue of shamans
Speaker 4: and what spirits are about, and realize that this is
Speaker 4: going back now thousands of years, and that these and
Speaker 4: that these experiences are documented in cave art all around
Speaker 4: the world, and you'll find again that the phenomenology is
Speaker 4: the same. Shamans are always having sex with spirits and
Speaker 4: often have babies in another realm.
Speaker 1: I might explain the immaculate conception.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and you know this is I often tell
Speaker 4: it as a joke, but it's true. I know of
Speaker 4: a shaman in the Amazon whose wife left him because
Speaker 4: of his wife in the spirit world.
Speaker 3: Wow, he had not only a wife over there, had
Speaker 3: kids over there too.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: We have the same phenomenology in encounters with spirits.
Speaker 3: By shamans documented in cave art going back tens of
Speaker 3: thousands of years.
Speaker 4: We have phenomenology and encounters with fairies and elves in
Speaker 4: the Middle Ages, and we have the identical phenomenology in
Speaker 4: encounters with aliens today. And I think it's obvious we're
Speaker 4: looking at the same experience through time, construed through different
Speaker 4: cultural lenses.
Speaker 1: Do thing Gnostic or Kabbalistic traditions have attempted to make
Speaker 1: deliberate contacts, So.
Speaker 4: I think any tradition that makes use of psychedelics, whether
Speaker 4: they want to or not, are going to make deliberate contact.
Speaker 4: I mean, I had on one of my early ayahuasca
Speaker 4: journeys in the Amazon, I had an a typical alien encounter,
Speaker 4: and I was sitting on a bench outside the shaman's hut,
Speaker 4: feeling pretty ill because that's what ayahuasca does with you.
Speaker 4: And I was having these wild visions and then I
Speaker 4: saw not one, but several flying saucers up above me,
Speaker 4: and I saw this characteristic alien face, you know, this
Speaker 4: sort of.
Speaker 3: Heart shaped, large dark eyes.
Speaker 4: Materialize up there, and I got the very strong message
Speaker 4: that they.
Speaker 3: Were going to take me away. We're going to take you.
Speaker 4: And that's where I was a coward because I was
Speaker 4: seeing these things with my eyes closed, and you can
Speaker 4: often stop visions by opening your eyes.
Speaker 3: And I opened my eyes and I shouted no.
Speaker 1: I would think someone like you would want to go.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 4: I've regretted it ever since, because what I should have
Speaker 4: done was keep my eyes shut and say yes, take me.
Speaker 4: But I was scared shitless. I was literally scared stiff,
Speaker 4: and it shook me to my core. Actually, this thing,
Speaker 4: I've mentioned this a number of times recently, but there's
Speaker 4: a really important project going on at Imperial College in London,
Speaker 4: and this is the first time that psychedelics have been
Speaker 4: trialed with human volunteers, not to see what the therapeutic
Speaker 4: benefit is, but to understand the phenomenology is particularly effective
Speaker 4: about in bringing about entity encounters Terence McKenna's machine LS,
Speaker 4: for example. What's happening at Imperial College is that they've
Speaker 4: found a way to keep people in the DMT state
Speaker 4: for an hour.
Speaker 1: Normally it's ten to fifteen minutes.
Speaker 4: Yes, an intravenous strip, and they keep them in a
Speaker 4: steady DMT state for an hour, And while doing that,
Speaker 4: they put them in MRI scanners and they interview them
Speaker 4: they talk to them to the extent that they're able
Speaker 4: to talk, and quite often with a full blown DMT journey,
Speaker 4: you're not able to talk until afterwards. But because they're
Speaker 4: in the journey for an hour, they're able to process
Speaker 4: the experience much more effectively than if you're in the
Speaker 4: journey for ten minutes. And this is really serious work
Speaker 4: that's being done at Imperial College. It's being done with
Speaker 4: large numbers of volunteers.
Speaker 1: This is Christopher Timmerman.
Speaker 3: Chris Timmerman is the head of the project. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's the guy who runs that project, and many
Speaker 4: other many other scientists working with him on that project.
Speaker 4: And they will sit with the volunteers through the whole
Speaker 4: hour and talk to them, and particularly what they want.
Speaker 3: To know is about entities. What entities are you encountering.
Speaker 4: Now some might say what's the use of this, but
Speaker 4: I say it's incredibly useful because what they're doing is
Speaker 4: they're exploring the DMT realm. And these are like early
Speaker 4: explorers from our time, you know, who went out into
Speaker 4: the wilderness and came back with stories about what they've seen.
Speaker 4: These volunteers are going out into the DMT wilderness and
Speaker 4: coming back with stories of what they've seen, and the
Speaker 4: stories are remarkably consistent that they're encountering the same entities
Speaker 4: in the same setting.
Speaker 3: And normally, when.
Speaker 4: Large number of people agree on the same experience, we
Speaker 4: are inclined to define that experience as real. And it's
Speaker 4: only the prejudices of our civilization that lead us to
Speaker 4: dismiss it as unreal or as mere hallucinations.
Speaker 1: There's something about nothing mere about these experiences. There's something
Speaker 1: about DMT that's fundamental to the human story in a
Speaker 1: way that we don't understand. Like it's you talk about
Speaker 1: it being the tree of life or the acacia tree
Speaker 1: rich being the tree of life in Egypt, and then
Speaker 1: in freemasonry the acacia leaf is a big is it
Speaker 1: kind of plays prominence.
Speaker 4: It plays a role in freemasonry, and there's there's there's
Speaker 4: no doubt about it.
Speaker 3: The wood out of which the Ark of the Covenant
Speaker 3: was made was a Kasha wood.
Speaker 1: Right and then and then there's something, you know, I
Speaker 1: think both of our world views might be more akin
Speaker 1: to sort of pan psychic panpsychism or something than you know,
Speaker 1: materialist reductionism, the separation of mind and matter and d
Speaker 1: MT exists in all organic material. So it's it's something no.
Speaker 4: Matter how prejudice you may be against the MT, you
Speaker 4: cannot get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Yes, everywhere.
Speaker 3: We make it. Human body makes the MT.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it makes it at very interesting times as well.
Speaker 1: It makes it uh at around the time in the
Speaker 1: womb when you're a identity sort of forms and maybe
Speaker 1: anemnesis occurs and you forget your sort of past self.
Speaker 1: It occurs during rem sleep and then and then when
Speaker 1: you die.
Speaker 3: And near death.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and normally it's in sub psychedelic quantities, but maybe
Speaker 4: maybe many of the natural visionaries that we've had have
Speaker 4: not who have not taken the psychedelic they just have visions,
Speaker 4: people like Joan of Arc for example.
Speaker 1: Well, we now know the brain. We thought that the
Speaker 1: brain couldn't produce it. It was produced in the lung. Now
Speaker 1: we know that the brain can indige, indigenously secrete the
Speaker 1: MT and d MT receptors are all over the brain.
Speaker 1: Amo borgage in at Michigan. Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 3: It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 4: And you know, the the human body and the brain
Speaker 4: is it doesn't waste resources. There's a reason that that
Speaker 4: is there. There's a reason that those receptors are there. Clearly,
Speaker 4: DMT is very important for us, and alongside other psychedelics.
Speaker 3: I mean, in many ways.
Speaker 4: Psilocybin is rightly referred to as orally active DMT cilocybin molecule,
Speaker 4: the empty molecular very closely related these. It's more broadly
Speaker 4: the trip to mean family that induce these extraordinary experiences
Speaker 4: in us, or allow us to have experiences.
Speaker 3: That in an alert problem.
Speaker 4: Solving state of consciousness, we will never never, never, never have.
Speaker 4: I don't think consciousness requires physical bodies. I think consciousness
Speaker 4: is fundamental to the universe. I think it's a fundamental
Speaker 4: force in the universe.
Speaker 3: Like gravity. Consciousness is there.
Speaker 4: But consciousness outside a physical body is obviously going to
Speaker 4: be limited in the range of things that it can experience.
Speaker 4: Once you immerse consciousness in a physical body, then that
Speaker 4: physical body and the person who's inside that physical body
Speaker 4: is going to face the challenges of physical life. We're
Speaker 4: going to have to make choices all the way through
Speaker 4: our life. Some of those choices may be very hurtful
Speaker 4: to others. Some of them may be helpful, nurturing positive choices.
Speaker 4: We are living in a theater of experience. We have
Speaker 4: the chance to learn and to grow and to develop
Speaker 4: in physical bodies. But we cannot be reduced to our
Speaker 4: physical bodies. Consciousness cannot be reduced to the brain. Rather,
Speaker 4: it manifests through the brain.
Speaker 1: In my view, yeah, or the physical exactly, the physical
Speaker 1: body is a filter or a reduction on, a reducing
Speaker 1: on exactly on a default state of greater knowledge and understanding.
Speaker 1: And that's why mystery rituals, you're temporarily killing that collapsing function, yes,
Speaker 1: so that you kind of glitch into this greater knowledge, into.
Speaker 4: This wider this wider reality which we are all part of.
Speaker 4: But but in order to survive in this physical realm,
Speaker 4: we tend to get very focused on this physical realm.
Speaker 3: And that's not a bad thing.
Speaker 4: I often say, and I'll say it again now, that
Speaker 4: that if I get into an airplane, I would like
Speaker 4: the pilot to be in an alert problem solving state
Speaker 4: of consciousness.
Speaker 3: I do not want my pilot.
Speaker 4: Doing visiting parallel realms while he's flying me from A
Speaker 4: to B. Once he gets off the plane, he can
Speaker 4: do all the dm T he wants, But while he's
Speaker 4: flying me, the alert problem solving state of consciousness is
Speaker 4: very useful for certain functions, and we should not dismiss it.
Speaker 3: It's part of us, but it's not the only It's
Speaker 3: not all we are.
Speaker 1: Are you Darwinian or do you think that? Look, there's
Speaker 1: more to the story.
Speaker 3: I think there's much more to the story. I think
Speaker 3: there's vastly more to the story.
Speaker 4: However, I would not be I would never be a
Speaker 4: person who denies that evolution takes place. There is such
Speaker 4: a thing as evolution. It would be absurd to suggest
Speaker 4: that there is not. We live on a hazardous planet.
Speaker 4: There are all sorts of issues that can bring particular life.
Speaker 3: Forms to an end, or nearly to an end.
Speaker 4: The clear point is the extinction of the dinosaurs sixty
Speaker 4: six million years ago. Nobody disputes now that that was
Speaker 4: done by a comet or an asteroid. The chicks Glue
Speaker 4: Crater in the Yucatan Deep now beneath the earth and
Speaker 4: the sea, is the evidence for that. And there's a
Speaker 4: line in the earth rare of a line of Earth
Speaker 4: which contains all the classic indicators of a cosmic impact.
Speaker 3: Exactly the same as the younger driest bandy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why is one so controversial? On the other wall?
Speaker 4: Initially, the extinction of the dinosaurs was controversial. Lewis and
Speaker 4: Walter Avarez were ridiculed by their peers, typical of science.
Speaker 4: Rather than saying, oh, here's an interesting idea, let's see
Speaker 4: what's good in it, they said, here's an idea which
Speaker 4: goes against everything we think, so let's destroy it. And
Speaker 4: they spent ten years destroying the idea of Lewis and
Speaker 4: Walter Avarez.
Speaker 3: Until they found the crater. The crater was the smoking gun.
Speaker 4: So I think that it would be observed to say
Speaker 4: that there's no such thing as evolution, because we've got
Speaker 4: to be able life, the whole thing of life, the
Speaker 4: whole project of life, has got to render itself very
Speaker 4: hard to wipe out, and evolution is one of the
Speaker 4: ways that it renders itself very hard to wipe out.
Speaker 3: But is evolution the whole story.
Speaker 4: No, is survival of the fittest, The whole story definitely
Speaker 4: not evolution. Wants to see human consciousness as a byproduct
Speaker 4: of survival of the fittest, that we needed these big
Speaker 4: brains to thrive in the jungle of competition, and as
Speaker 4: an accidental byproduct of that we got consciousness. I don't
Speaker 4: think it's an accidental byproduct that I think it's the
Speaker 4: I think it's the focus of I think it's what
Speaker 4: evolution is all about. So while I don't wish to
Speaker 4: dismiss evolution, I do want to say that we're only
Speaker 4: getting a tiny.
Speaker 1: Fraction story, but there may be is a teleology that's
Speaker 1: a little more preordained than we think too. Yes, evolution.
Speaker 1: That's like a guy like Henry Bergson, you know, in
Speaker 1: creative Evolution, would write that there's there's a there's more
Speaker 1: of a clear endpoint than we than we realized.
Speaker 3: And I suspect that's true.
Speaker 4: I think, I think, I think that under the layer
Speaker 4: that's been identified by science, the layer of Darwinian evolution,
Speaker 4: hidden beneath that is a whole other layer that's going on,
Speaker 4: which is directed and we are we are seeing a
Speaker 4: project working out and evolution is the way, is one
Speaker 4: of the means, one of the tools that is used
Speaker 4: by that project.
Speaker 1: And you brought up Rouper Childrick, that's definitely a gap
Speaker 1: in evolution where if you know a thousand people do
Speaker 1: a crossword puzzle, and you do that tomorrow, and then
Speaker 1: you do a control group crossword puzzle, no one it's done.
Speaker 1: You're more likely to complete the one that a thousand
Speaker 1: people have done. There's some sort of collective suggest.
Speaker 4: Where we're part of some sort of collective intelligence, that
Speaker 4: we are connected, perhaps telepathically, perhaps in some other way
Speaker 4: with all of the rest of the human race.
Speaker 3: And it's why it's so absurd now that we.
Speaker 4: Live on this planet, that we have this majestic planet
Speaker 4: at our disposal.
Speaker 3: We have our consciousness, we have these huge.
Speaker 4: Brains, and what are we doing. We're still spreading hatred
Speaker 4: and fear and suspicion, and we're still murdering each other
Speaker 4: on mass scale, you know, dictators with with nukes threatening
Speaker 4: threatening the world again. I mean, this is such a
Speaker 4: failure of the potential of the human race. We need
Speaker 4: to graduate beyond that simplistic tribal level. There was a
Speaker 4: role for tribal society once, but in a globally integrated world,
Speaker 4: it isn't helpful anymore to have these tribal mindsets where
Speaker 4: you know we're better than you, and because we are
Speaker 4: different from you, we're going to kill you.
Speaker 3: This is just nonsense. We're going to take your stuff.
Speaker 4: By the way, as well, this is a sign of
Speaker 4: a species that has a lot of consciousness evolution still
Speaker 4: to go through.
Speaker 1: Well, maybe you and Randall Carlson need to start a
Speaker 1: school or something.
Speaker 4: Randall is a is a teacher, he does teach.
Speaker 3: My thing is books and making the occasional TV series.
Speaker 1: But well it's reaching a lot of people and it's
Speaker 1: amazing to see the docu series. It's always an honor
Speaker 1: to talk to you. I really admire you, and you
Speaker 1: have to promise to let me to tag along at
Speaker 1: one of your excursions. I'll do whatever you need.
Speaker 3: We'll make it happen. Jesse will definitely make it happen.
Speaker 1: Appreciate it to talk to you. Likewise, thank you,
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