The Most Shocking Alien Encounter Story! "Intruders" With Deb Kauble!

0:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Total Disclosure. My name is Ty and

0:15 Speaker 1: I am the host. Today's guest is someone whose story

0:18 Speaker 1: has captivated the world and continues to shed light on

0:22 Speaker 1: the extraordinary. Deborah Jordan Cobble, also known as the real

0:27 Speaker 1: life Kathy Davis from Bud Hopkins groundbreaking book Intruders The

0:32 Speaker 1: Incredible Visitations at Coppley Woods. She is here with us.

0:37 Speaker 1: If that title rings a bell, you might also remember

0:41 Speaker 1: the CBS mini series based on her experiences pretty loosely,

0:45 Speaker 1: and trust me, her story is just as fascinating today

0:49 Speaker 1: as it was then. Debor didn't stop there. She's an author, investigator,

0:55 Speaker 1: and advocate for those navigating their own extraordinary encounters. Her

0:59 Speaker 1: latest Extraordinary Contact Life Beyond Intruders, dives even deeper into

1:05 Speaker 1: our journey and is a must read for anyone curious

1:09 Speaker 1: about the unexplained. Not only that, but she's also appeared

1:13 Speaker 1: on the National Geographics UFOs Investigating the Unknown. So yes,

1:18 Speaker 1: you can catch her on Disney Plus and Hulu right now.

1:22 Speaker 1: Beyond her personal experiences, Debra's been out on the front

1:26 Speaker 1: lines of paranormal research as a former move On investigator,

1:30 Speaker 1: co founder of Paranormal Underground, and cohost of Midwest Paratoc

1:35 Speaker 1: Radio and Voices of Contact. Whether she's speaking at a

1:39 Speaker 1: conference around the world or offering support to others through

1:42 Speaker 1: Saroh the Midwest Experience or Community, Deborah's mission is clear

1:46 Speaker 1: to break down the stigma and to push for truth

1:50 Speaker 1: and transparency in the UFO phenomenon. So buckle up. This

1:53 Speaker 1: conversation is going to take you places you never imagined.

1:58 Speaker 1: Let's give a warm welcome too our guest Nebra Jordan Gobble,

2:12 Speaker 1: super happy to have you on the show today. I

2:15 Speaker 1: became interested in UFOs around the age of eight or nine,

2:19 Speaker 1: when I have my own sighting, and from there I

2:21 Speaker 1: just immersed myself in the world. And your story was

2:25 Speaker 1: one of the first that I came across, aside from

2:28 Speaker 1: like Whitley Streeber's communion. But I knew you as a pseudonym, Kathy,

2:33 Speaker 1: So I have been waiting. This conversation has been some

2:37 Speaker 1: twenty five years for me in the making. Twenty years

2:39 Speaker 1: in the making for me. So I just want to

2:41 Speaker 1: say thank you for all the work that you've done

2:42 Speaker 1: in the community for experiencers. It's a very touchy subject.

2:46 Speaker 1: It's very people don't really want to touch it. And

2:50 Speaker 1: it frustrates me because again, you know, I was just

2:54 Speaker 1: in Congress for the hearings, and out of all the

2:57 Speaker 1: hearings that they've had, you know, abductions really don't cat mentioned.

3:00 Speaker 1: It's not something I don't think the world is ready

3:03 Speaker 1: to talk about. So maybe we could start off just asking,

3:06 Speaker 1: you know, a little bit about you and why you

3:08 Speaker 1: think abductions are so taboo.

3:10 Speaker 2: Well, I know, I'm in my own instance. When I

3:13 Speaker 2: first started to realize what was happening to me, I

3:16 Speaker 2: was like, no, this, you know, this makes no sense.

3:21 Speaker 2: This is some crazy shit, and there's got to be

3:25 Speaker 2: another explanation for it. And I tried really hard to

3:30 Speaker 2: find out, you know, figure out what that explanation would be.

3:36 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, and I called

3:39 Speaker 2: a lot for years, I called a lot of my

3:41 Speaker 2: memories dreams because I didn't know how else to think

3:44 Speaker 2: of them, because they didn't fit in my world, you know,

3:47 Speaker 2: or in the my reality, and they didn't make sense.

3:50 Speaker 2: But like I said, at the end of the day,

3:53 Speaker 2: I couldn't blame a dream for the mark in the yard,

3:57 Speaker 2: the other people that witnessed Fay, the damage that was

4:01 Speaker 2: done to my dog, and my eyes, and you know,

4:05 Speaker 2: I eventually began to realize that indeed my memories were memories.

4:13 Speaker 2: Now I have theories and some things that I have

4:19 Speaker 2: opinions on what might have been, because my memories are

4:22 Speaker 2: still incomplete. But the things that I do remember, and

4:27 Speaker 2: I always try to make sure I specify to people

4:29 Speaker 2: when I am talking about that kind of stuff that

4:32 Speaker 2: that's my gut feeling or that's what I feel. But

4:34 Speaker 2: I could be wrong, you know, but there are certain

4:36 Speaker 2: things I'm not wrong about. And I'm not wrong about

4:38 Speaker 2: that mark in the yard. I'm not wrong about my eyes.

4:40 Speaker 2: You know, the other people around me that have experienced

4:43 Speaker 2: things with me, I'm no control over them. I say

4:48 Speaker 2: that my experiences are contagious because people who hang around

4:52 Speaker 2: me or my family, it's not just me, eventually end

4:55 Speaker 2: up either having an experience with one of us or

4:58 Speaker 2: have their own.

4:59 Speaker 1: So I had to come to your house, all nice, Well, okay,

5:05 Speaker 1: so so why do you think now? Or let me

5:08 Speaker 1: rephrase this. You know, as I watched the congressional hearings

5:11 Speaker 1: unfold and the talking government starts to happen, you know,

5:17 Speaker 1: the stigma at least is starting to fade away. You

5:22 Speaker 1: know in terms of UFOs, right, why do you are you?

5:26 Speaker 1: Does it aggravate you that abductions aren't talked about, or

5:29 Speaker 1: do you agree that maybe this is a good strategy

5:33 Speaker 1: that we need to get UFOs and that to be

5:36 Speaker 1: the first domino that falls.

5:38 Speaker 2: When I was younger, it did aggravate me because I

5:42 Speaker 2: was here, I was out putting myself out there to

5:47 Speaker 2: be humiliated and ridiculed and back. You know, this was

5:50 Speaker 2: in the eighties and nineties. Nobody want to be famous

5:53 Speaker 2: for this. I sure in the hell didn't want to

5:55 Speaker 2: be famous for it. I had a family to protect,

5:57 Speaker 2: little kids to raise, single mom, I had a job,

6:00 Speaker 2: and I you know, this is not how I made

6:03 Speaker 2: my living. This is what was just something that happened

6:06 Speaker 2: to me. I wanted to share with everybody, and I

6:07 Speaker 2: would try to talk to anybody who would listen. And

6:11 Speaker 2: I was very bashful. And if you go back to

6:15 Speaker 2: some of the old video that you can see of

6:17 Speaker 2: me on some of these TV shows I went on

6:19 Speaker 2: with Bud, you can tell I'm absolutely mortified and I

6:23 Speaker 2: can barely make myself talk. But I felt that internal

6:27 Speaker 2: drive that I had a job to do, that I

6:29 Speaker 2: was what I was saying was important to somebody somewhere sometime.

6:34 Speaker 2: Now we're in the future, and I couldn't not I

6:38 Speaker 2: could not resist the urge to open my mouth. And

6:41 Speaker 2: then a lot of times when I'd say something afterwards,

6:44 Speaker 2: I think, oh, my god, why in the hell did

6:45 Speaker 2: I just say that? Jesus Christ, you know, but it

6:49 Speaker 2: is what it was, And when I first you know,

6:54 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen is when really really things started to change

6:57 Speaker 2: after the Times article, you know, in the world, I

7:00 Speaker 2: myself have been fortunate, unlike most experiencers or people that

7:05 Speaker 2: have had these experiences with these nhi, I had the

7:08 Speaker 2: support of my family and neighbors, friends, co workers because

7:12 Speaker 2: they were all there in my life witnessing it, having

7:16 Speaker 2: their own experiences. They knew, you know, that I wasn't

7:21 Speaker 2: lying or right up because they were seeing it themselves, right.

7:26 Speaker 2: So I was more fortunate that I had that support.

7:29 Speaker 2: So in my mind, another part of me was like,

7:31 Speaker 2: I got to do this because I got to pay

7:32 Speaker 2: this forward, because there's for everyone there like me that's

7:36 Speaker 2: Scott support, there's ten thousand who don't don't yes, for

7:40 Speaker 2: everyone like me who's out in public telling their story

7:44 Speaker 2: and their truth, there's probably one hundred thousand with crazier

7:48 Speaker 2: stories than me that won't open their mouth. And if

7:51 Speaker 2: I'm out here doing this, maybe they will feel more

7:54 Speaker 2: comfortable and talk about it. And the stigma was much

7:57 Speaker 2: worse forty years ago than it is now. But like

8:01 Speaker 2: I said, I was fortunate because I had a lot

8:03 Speaker 2: more support than most. And in twenty seventeen when the

8:07 Speaker 2: article broke with the tic TAC videos and all that stuff,

8:11 Speaker 2: and then Congress started to get interested, and I honestly,

8:15 Speaker 2: I never thought I would live to see the day

8:17 Speaker 2: that there would be an article like that in a

8:19 Speaker 2: mainstream newspaper. And then as I sat and watched the hearings,

8:26 Speaker 2: the first ones, I watched every minute of them on

8:30 Speaker 2: c SPAN, and I kept thinking to myself, Oh Jesus Christ,

8:35 Speaker 2: I never thought I would live to see this day.

8:38 Speaker 2: And then you know, they didn't say anything about the

8:41 Speaker 2: witnesses like me, the experiencers that had these complicated contacts,

8:46 Speaker 2: but I knew. I mean, I'm no dummy, and I

8:51 Speaker 2: understand that if you haven't seen or experienced this consciously anyway,

8:57 Speaker 2: it's going to be really hard for you to accept

8:59 Speaker 2: or even and listen to. And I understood that there

9:05 Speaker 2: had to be a beginning to this and there had

9:08 Speaker 2: to be a gentle glide into it. I just look,

9:14 Speaker 2: I can't hear you.

9:16 Speaker 1: That was really well said. I really really couldn't have like,

9:21 Speaker 1: I couldn't express that that better. Yeah, So you've been

9:29 Speaker 1: You've been described now this is you know from your

9:32 Speaker 1: peers and from people around the community, but you've been

9:35 Speaker 1: described as one of the most compelling voices in the

9:38 Speaker 1: UFO and experience or community. So what was it like

9:42 Speaker 1: to have your story shared with the world in Bud

9:46 Speaker 1: Hopkins's book Intruders in that CBS mini series.

9:50 Speaker 2: Well, initially it was kind of scary when Bud first

9:56 Speaker 2: approached the family. And you know, like I said, again,

9:59 Speaker 2: it wasn't just me, it was my whole family. So

10:01 Speaker 2: as a family, we decided, okay, you can write the book.

10:05 Speaker 2: He approached us and at first he said, I think

10:07 Speaker 2: your story is important because there's so many different parts

10:11 Speaker 2: to it, and a lot of these stories don't have

10:13 Speaker 2: all these other parts like the trace cases and the

10:16 Speaker 2: witnesses and everything. And he said, I really think it's

10:20 Speaker 2: important and I want the world to know about it.

10:22 Speaker 2: I want to write a book and all of us

10:24 Speaker 2: at first, We're sitting around the kitchen table and oh yeah,

10:29 Speaker 2: I don't think so. The whole idea, the whole point

10:32 Speaker 2: of me contacting him was I was just looking for

10:34 Speaker 2: somebody to help me assimilate this into my life, help

10:38 Speaker 2: me to understand it, and I just wanted a normal life.

10:43 Speaker 1: You know, how did you know, how did you get

10:45 Speaker 1: in contact with Bud?

10:48 Speaker 2: I've I had gotten his book Missing Time out of

10:51 Speaker 2: the library several months before the June thirty eighty three incident.

10:55 Speaker 2: I'd picked it up in my library. You know, I

10:57 Speaker 2: was a single mom, and library were free entertainment. I

11:01 Speaker 2: had two little kids, so we'd go there every weekend

11:04 Speaker 2: and I'd bring home stacks of books and I picked

11:06 Speaker 2: up Missing Time. And as I started reading and I

11:09 Speaker 2: started having panic attacks, I never could finish it. I

11:12 Speaker 2: have assigned a copy of it from Bud now and

11:14 Speaker 2: I still haven't finished it.

11:16 Speaker 1: But oh wow.

11:18 Speaker 2: In the back of that book there was a place

11:20 Speaker 2: that said, if you think you've had this experience you

11:24 Speaker 2: want to talk to somebody about it, here's my address,

11:27 Speaker 2: And it was an address that you could write to him.

11:30 Speaker 2: So after the June thirty eighty three incident, and I

11:32 Speaker 2: saw the mark in the yard and all the memories

11:34 Speaker 2: started coming back. I went back to the library and

11:38 Speaker 2: I got that book out to get the address out

11:41 Speaker 2: of the back, and then I came home and I

11:43 Speaker 2: wrote him like this fourteen page letter with a bunch

11:45 Speaker 2: of polaroid pictures of the yard and kind of tossed

11:49 Speaker 2: my older sister under the bus because I told him

11:51 Speaker 2: about her experience in sixty five and I had didn't

11:54 Speaker 2: ask for permission to do it. I figured, well, she'll

11:57 Speaker 2: be mad at me, but she'll get over it forgiveness, right, Yeah,

12:01 Speaker 2: you have to like me. I'm your sister, that sort

12:04 Speaker 2: of thing. Can't be mad at me forever, right, I

12:06 Speaker 2: mean I was young, But so that's how. And he

12:10 Speaker 2: wrote back eventually, you know, I don't know how many

12:13 Speaker 2: weeks it took. It was a while, but eventually, actually

12:15 Speaker 2: he called. He called and we spoke, and from that

12:20 Speaker 2: point on, I think it was like a two or

12:22 Speaker 2: three year investigation. Even though Bud was an artist, you know,

12:27 Speaker 2: he wasn't a scientist or a doctor thing like that,

12:30 Speaker 2: but he was a brilliant He enlisted the aid of

12:35 Speaker 2: people like doctor Afrodite Klamar, the psychiatrist in New York.

12:40 Speaker 2: You know, he sent soil samples off the laboratories, he

12:44 Speaker 2: got doctors to do testing for me. I had psychological

12:49 Speaker 2: written in verbal psychological testing at the hospital in New

12:51 Speaker 2: York that he arranged. I don't know how he arranged

12:54 Speaker 2: it or who paid for it, because I certainly didn't

12:56 Speaker 2: have the money. And you know, so he knew how

13:01 Speaker 2: to reach out to the right people. And then also

13:05 Speaker 2: he as well, he connected me with somebody he had

13:09 Speaker 2: like a buddy system for people that had experiences, and

13:13 Speaker 2: he introduced me to a woman in New York who

13:16 Speaker 2: was a little older than me, who'd had more conscious

13:19 Speaker 2: awareness of her experiences than I did. And her and

13:23 Speaker 2: I talked. She was very kind and she would like

13:26 Speaker 2: she told me, you can call me anytime, day or

13:28 Speaker 2: night if something's happening or you're feeling weird, you remember something,

13:32 Speaker 2: I'm here for you. So he kind of hooked me

13:34 Speaker 2: up with a buddy. And I mean, you know, he

13:38 Speaker 2: at the end of all of this, I've been asked

13:42 Speaker 2: many times, if you could have your life all over

13:44 Speaker 2: again and not have this weird stuff happen, would you

13:47 Speaker 2: make it go away? And there might have been a

13:49 Speaker 2: point in my life very young that I would have

13:51 Speaker 2: said yes. But at this point now I'm sixty five,

13:54 Speaker 2: almost sixty six, and I'm like, no, I wouldn't change

13:57 Speaker 2: a thing because everything I've been through has created the

14:01 Speaker 2: person I am today. You know. So, But anyway, right,

14:06 Speaker 2: other buddy, and I credit Bud for that, can I ask.

14:10 Speaker 1: If you don't have to say it, I'd actually rather

14:14 Speaker 1: you didn't. This buddy that you were You're given was her?

14:22 Speaker 1: Was it her? It was a woman and very high

14:26 Speaker 1: profile case in New York.

14:28 Speaker 2: Actually, no, no, it's not who you're thinking it is.

14:31 Speaker 2: Oh okay, I'm already know what you're thinking. Another yeah,

14:35 Speaker 2: all right, all right, all right, it wasn't a high

14:38 Speaker 2: profile and she was a she was an executive in

14:41 Speaker 2: a company. Uh you know, but not not in the

14:44 Speaker 2: way you would.

14:45 Speaker 1: Think she Okay, she was.

14:47 Speaker 2: Just really god lover. I can't even remember her first

14:50 Speaker 2: name right now, it's been so many years ago, but

14:53 Speaker 2: she I just if she's listening, if she's even still around,

14:56 Speaker 2: you know, thank you.

15:00 Speaker 1: I'll say thank you because I think, like you said,

15:03 Speaker 1: it's the experiences that really, you know, because we're born

15:08 Speaker 1: and then you know, we're kind of brought up by

15:11 Speaker 1: our parents in different ways, but for the most part,

15:14 Speaker 1: you know, black and white, what's real. This is real,

15:17 Speaker 1: I could hold it right. So it's a black and

15:19 Speaker 1: white world that we're raised in, and you know, we

15:24 Speaker 1: kind of go along and discover that there's a lot

15:28 Speaker 1: more gray than we were ever told. And that's when

15:32 Speaker 1: you know. People have these you know, they have these

15:38 Speaker 1: encounters that literally challenge their reality and sometimes it breaks

15:44 Speaker 1: them and sometimes it makes them who they are. And

15:49 Speaker 1: you know, it looks like you become a better person

15:51 Speaker 1: because of what you've experienced.

15:54 Speaker 2: But you used to tell me when I got older,

15:56 Speaker 2: and he would say, don't ever give them credit for

15:59 Speaker 2: what you did them, meaning those non human intelligence right,

16:04 Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, I get that, I understand that.

16:07 Speaker 2: But you know, sometimes I wondered that when I got

16:13 Speaker 2: hit in June thirty eighty three, when that light hit me,

16:15 Speaker 2: I always said, like part of me was erased and

16:21 Speaker 2: a new part was installed, like deb two point zero,

16:25 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Because it was from that

16:27 Speaker 2: point forward that I began to change physically and mentally, emotionally, spiritually,

16:33 Speaker 2: all of it. It began.

16:35 Speaker 1: Then that's super strange.

16:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, trust me.

16:42 Speaker 1: Well, it's almost like a synchronicity. And I'm sure you

16:45 Speaker 1: know about this community and synchronicities, but I'll tell you

16:50 Speaker 1: off air, because they can't tell you all air. But

16:54 Speaker 1: so for people who may wonder, I want to, I

17:00 Speaker 1: want before we dive deeper. For listeners of yours who

17:05 Speaker 1: may not be familiar with your journey, I don't know

17:08 Speaker 1: how to be possible, but can you give us a

17:11 Speaker 1: brief overview of your experience, Take us back to that

17:17 Speaker 1: that day, bring us back and kind of walk us

17:23 Speaker 1: through what happened. And uh, let's set the let's set

17:26 Speaker 1: the foundation.

17:28 Speaker 2: Okay, it's it's kind of a long, complicated story. But

17:31 Speaker 2: I've learned over the years. I've learned how to like

17:33 Speaker 2: streamline it where you know, it doesn't take away from

17:37 Speaker 2: the actual idea, you know, or the thought of it.

17:41 Speaker 2: But I was I was a single mother, had moved

17:43 Speaker 2: back home with my parents to you know, get my

17:49 Speaker 2: shit together basically, And one night, when I was getting

17:54 Speaker 2: ready to go leave the house for a little while,

17:56 Speaker 2: I noticed there was a strange light in the pump

17:59 Speaker 2: house swimming pool that we had out in the backyard

18:02 Speaker 2: that had one of those we called it the cement

18:05 Speaker 2: pond like the Beverly Hillbillies. And I noted that, and

18:10 Speaker 2: I told my mom, I'm like, there's something. There's a

18:12 Speaker 2: weird light out there and the doors kind of open.

18:14 Speaker 2: She's like, don't worry about it. Your dad will get

18:16 Speaker 2: it whenever it gets home. So I got ready to

18:20 Speaker 2: leave a few minutes later, and I couldn't stop thinking

18:23 Speaker 2: about it. Something just rubbed me the wrong way. So

18:27 Speaker 2: I decided to go. This house was the Try Level

18:30 Speaker 2: Sandstone Try Level, and it had this split driveway in

18:33 Speaker 2: the front. The driveway goes to the garage, but then

18:35 Speaker 2: there's a drive that went along the side of the house,

18:38 Speaker 2: and there was a turn around the back and then

18:40 Speaker 2: behind the pool, and that's where my dad's workshop was.

18:42 Speaker 2: And the workshop had a lot of expensive motorcycles. He

18:45 Speaker 2: restored Indian motorcycles and all kind of stuff back there.

18:49 Speaker 2: So I'm thinking, you know, I'm gonna just kind of

18:50 Speaker 2: whip around behind that just to check them, make sure

18:54 Speaker 2: that the shop is okay before I leave. I'm thinking burglars,

18:58 Speaker 2: not aliens. So I go back there and I checked

19:03 Speaker 2: everything looks fine. I did notice that the door to

19:06 Speaker 2: the garage that was attached to the house was open,

19:09 Speaker 2: which shouldn't have been. But instead of stopping, I just

19:12 Speaker 2: went to my friend's house because she lived one street over.

19:15 Speaker 2: It took like two minutes, and I called my mom

19:19 Speaker 2: and I told her. I hed, hey, the pedestrian door's

19:21 Speaker 2: open on the garage and she's like, well, don't worry

19:24 Speaker 2: about it. Your dad probably left it open. He can

19:27 Speaker 2: show it when he gets home. My mom, my mom

19:29 Speaker 2: was she was fearless, nothing bothered her ever. I said, okay.

19:37 Speaker 2: So I hung up the phone, and within you know,

19:39 Speaker 2: an instant after I hung up, the phone rang and

19:42 Speaker 2: it was her and she said, I need I want

19:46 Speaker 2: you to come home right now. And I said, what's wrong?

19:53 Speaker 2: You know, I could hear the panic in her voice,

19:55 Speaker 2: and I my friend's husband was listening to our conversation,

20:00 Speaker 2: and then he hollers over my shoulder, tell her to

20:01 Speaker 2: call the police. That's what we pay him for. And

20:04 Speaker 2: she heard him, and she said, I don't want anybody

20:05 Speaker 2: here but you. I'm like, okay, So to my friends,

20:09 Speaker 2: I'll be back in a few I'm gonna go check

20:10 Speaker 2: things out. And I went home, got there, pulled up

20:13 Speaker 2: the side drive, went into the side many. Uh. We

20:17 Speaker 2: called it the Florida Room. I picked up my dad's shotgun.

20:21 Speaker 2: Mom says, I know that's you know, that's not loaded, right,

20:24 Speaker 2: And I said, yes, I know, but whoever's out there

20:27 Speaker 2: doesn't so right, you know, because I'm thinking I get

20:31 Speaker 2: close enough to him to hit him with before they

20:33 Speaker 2: figure out I'm not gonna hell yeah, you know what

20:35 Speaker 2: I mean. And that's so weird too. That was out

20:37 Speaker 2: of character for me because I was not a brave person. Today,

20:40 Speaker 2: I wouldn't think twice about it, but back then that

20:42 Speaker 2: was a big deal that I even did that.

20:44 Speaker 1: So so in terms of fight or flight, you saw

20:48 Speaker 1: yourself more as a flight.

20:51 Speaker 2: Usually typically I would hide. I'm a hider, you know.

20:54 Speaker 2: I'm a head on three sixty swivel, watching everybody's body

20:58 Speaker 2: language and moves. I mean, just a survivor that way

21:01 Speaker 2: I always have been. But man, I was like, okay,

21:03 Speaker 2: come on, let's go bring it. I went out there,

21:07 Speaker 2: marched my happy asset by there with the and everything.

21:11 Speaker 2: I didn't see anything back there that disturbed me. I

21:14 Speaker 2: did find my dog under dad's ladder truck and she

21:18 Speaker 2: would not come out, So I'm like, fine, stay there,

21:21 Speaker 2: and so I headed to the garage, and I walked

21:26 Speaker 2: through the garage door, the pedestrian door into the garage,

21:30 Speaker 2: assuming that if there was anybody out here messing around,

21:33 Speaker 2: they'd have to be hiding in there, because I saw

21:34 Speaker 2: nothing anywhere else right. And about the time I was

21:38 Speaker 2: ready to look behind some mattresses that were leaned up

21:41 Speaker 2: against the wall, I felt suddenly like I was on fire.

21:48 Speaker 2: I felt like every my skin was burning, and I

21:52 Speaker 2: remember thinking, oh my god, I got to get out

21:55 Speaker 2: of here right now. And I turned to run through

21:57 Speaker 2: the pedestrian door. And as soon as I got to

21:59 Speaker 2: that open doorway, something hit me in the chest, like

22:02 Speaker 2: chest area, tummy, chest, so like the like right here, tlexus, Yeah,

22:09 Speaker 2: like right right here. It was like a light, a

22:12 Speaker 2: burst of light, and it was so bright and intense

22:15 Speaker 2: that I am I know, my eyes had to be closed.

22:18 Speaker 2: That's like the that's like the natural reflex. But I

22:21 Speaker 2: couldn't get away from it. I couldn't not see it,

22:24 Speaker 2: and I also could not move, and I started to shake.

22:29 Speaker 2: And when I started to shake, I thought, I remember

22:31 Speaker 2: thinking I'm dead. I'm dead. Yeah, I remember thinking I'm dead.

22:37 Speaker 2: And I don't know how long I was in that condition.

22:42 Speaker 2: I don't remember i've I've used the term before. People

22:46 Speaker 2: laugh at me. I said, time stopped. The reason I

22:48 Speaker 2: say time stopped is because I don't know how long

22:50 Speaker 2: I stood there. I have no I have no sensation

22:53 Speaker 2: of what was going on around me until I the

22:56 Speaker 2: shaking got so intense. It was like a vibrating and

22:58 Speaker 2: it was almost like every month, all acue of my

23:00 Speaker 2: body was independently vibrating, and I can feel every single

23:03 Speaker 2: one of them. And then it stopped and the light

23:09 Speaker 2: became much less intense, and I remembered I feel at

23:14 Speaker 2: one point feeling somebody pulled down on my shoulder, on

23:16 Speaker 2: my right shoulder from behind, and I heard a voice

23:21 Speaker 2: that said it was unfortunate that I'd felt pain. Also,

23:25 Speaker 2: at that point, I realized that I was no longer

23:27 Speaker 2: in the doorway. I was out on the patio, maybe

23:31 Speaker 2: ten feet or so. And I don't remember walking out there.

23:33 Speaker 2: I don't know how I got there. Also, at that point,

23:36 Speaker 2: I realized my eyes were jacked up. I couldn't see shit.

23:41 Speaker 2: It was like flash blast, like a flashbulb you ever,

23:45 Speaker 2: yes got, you know, it was like that. It was

23:48 Speaker 2: painful and splotchy but I could see movement in front

23:53 Speaker 2: of me, and I saw what looked to me like children,

23:58 Speaker 2: six kids, all all totaled, in my mom's backyard. And

24:02 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what are these kids doing in my mom's backyard?

24:06 Speaker 2: And they seemed to come from different directions, and they

24:09 Speaker 2: all gathered up by the driveway at the quarter where

24:12 Speaker 2: the swimming pool is, and they kind of lined up,

24:14 Speaker 2: and then they just started to slide across the yard

24:18 Speaker 2: towards me, but not right at me. And I'm watching them.

24:22 Speaker 2: I still can't move, but I can see them, and

24:25 Speaker 2: I'm following them, and I don't see a lot of detail.

24:28 Speaker 2: I believe. I told Bud they were like bullet shape,

24:31 Speaker 2: but I thought they were kids, but I kept thinking

24:34 Speaker 2: they were bullet shaped because their heads were bigger than

24:37 Speaker 2: their little bodies. They kind of went down right, So

24:44 Speaker 2: it was at that point, as they got closer to me,

24:47 Speaker 2: that's when I realized there was this thing off to

24:49 Speaker 2: my left, maybe twenty twenty five. I'm sucky with distance.

24:57 Speaker 2: I'm too, I'm like almost dyslexic with right left north

25:01 Speaker 2: southeast west. I don't know why, but oh, I saw

25:05 Speaker 2: this thing. It was about the size of the pumphouse

25:09 Speaker 2: of the swimming pool was not very big, maybe ten

25:11 Speaker 2: feet tall. It was shaped like an egg, and it

25:14 Speaker 2: was sitting right there, and I could see like a

25:19 Speaker 2: basketball sized ball of white light off to the side

25:23 Speaker 2: of it, and that light went down really slow and

25:25 Speaker 2: came back up really slow. At that point, I lost

25:28 Speaker 2: track of where these little kids were. I never saw

25:30 Speaker 2: them go into that thing. I don't know where they went,

25:33 Speaker 2: because as soon as I saw that egg thing, I

25:35 Speaker 2: freaked out because I didn't want to look at it.

25:38 Speaker 2: But I didn't want to not look at it. If

25:41 Speaker 2: you could understand how I needed to know where it

25:44 Speaker 2: was in proximity to me, you know what I'm saying

25:46 Speaker 2: that kind of spear. And then at some point I

25:52 Speaker 2: remember thinking, oh my god, my kids, because they were

25:54 Speaker 2: in the house right here behind me, and what is

25:56 Speaker 2: all this shit going on in front of me? You know?

26:00 Speaker 2: And as soon as I had the thought my kids,

26:03 Speaker 2: my kids, the voice said, the same disembodied voice I

26:06 Speaker 2: didn't see anybody talk to me, said your children are okay, Okay,

26:13 Speaker 2: who the fuck is saying that? Hell, I don't know,

26:15 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't. I couldn't see anybody, and I

26:17 Speaker 2: couldn't turn around, I couldn't look, and I'm like, you

26:20 Speaker 2: know what.

26:21 Speaker 1: I'm not going to take your word for it, like.

26:24 Speaker 2: What is happening here? You know? And I'm and the

26:27 Speaker 2: next thing I remember, I kind of like black out.

26:30 Speaker 2: I come in and out of consciousness of something I

26:33 Speaker 2: don't know. But the next thing I remember, I hear

26:37 Speaker 2: my name, but this time the voice was different. I

26:40 Speaker 2: heard somebody say Debbie. And as soon as I heard

26:44 Speaker 2: my name, I immediately could move. I spun around on

26:47 Speaker 2: my feet and I started to walk toward it. And

26:49 Speaker 2: it was my mother. She was actually kind of hanging

26:52 Speaker 2: out the door where there's a the bottom patio, a

26:56 Speaker 2: set of steps and then another porch, and that's where

27:00 Speaker 2: where the kitchen door was. And Mom was kind of

27:03 Speaker 2: out the kitchen door a little bit, calling my name,

27:06 Speaker 2: and I said yeah, and she says, this is everything okay?

27:09 Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, everything's cool. But in my mind,

27:12 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what is wrong with me? I just feel

27:15 Speaker 2: so weird and gross now, and I thought I don't

27:18 Speaker 2: want to sew anymore. And I don't know. I can't

27:22 Speaker 2: remember at this point whether I went back to my

27:23 Speaker 2: friend's house or I just called her. I'm like, hey,

27:25 Speaker 2: let's go swimming instead, you know, and she agreed. So

27:29 Speaker 2: her and her daughter was over at mom's house and

27:33 Speaker 2: we're walking back to the swimming pool across the yard

27:35 Speaker 2: where all this nonsense just happened that I don't remember,

27:39 Speaker 2: and her daughter steps on something in the yard and

27:42 Speaker 2: we thought maybe she'd stepped on a bee. You know,

27:44 Speaker 2: I had a stinger in her foot. We couldn't see it.

27:48 Speaker 2: So we got to the pool, couldn't see anything, and

27:50 Speaker 2: it's dark now by this time. It's stark outside, but

27:53 Speaker 2: the lights are on and the pool we have water

27:55 Speaker 2: lights in the pool. It was really cool. But we're

28:00 Speaker 2: all out there maybe ten minutes or so, and the

28:05 Speaker 2: we all start feeling kind of nauseated, kind of sick

28:07 Speaker 2: to our stomachs, and I'm getting a headache, and I'm

28:09 Speaker 2: starting to notice my eyes are burning, and I'm starting

28:12 Speaker 2: to also notice halos around the lights. You know, you

28:15 Speaker 2: when you were a kid, you ever getting humatism? Well,

28:18 Speaker 2: did you ever remember, like when you've got your eyes

28:20 Speaker 2: in the chlorine and you open your eyes too much

28:22 Speaker 2: and then your eyes would be all red and burning

28:25 Speaker 2: and you can see halos. That's what my eyes were doing,

28:27 Speaker 2: but I hadn't gotten my head, I hadn't got my

28:30 Speaker 2: eyes in the water, So I think that my friend

28:35 Speaker 2: comments suggested, Hey, you know, maybe if we let's go

28:38 Speaker 2: to White Castle and get some white some hamburgers, maybe

28:40 Speaker 2: we'll feel better. I'm like, I don't know about that,

28:44 Speaker 2: and I can't remember whether we actually did that or not.

28:47 Speaker 2: But eventually they went home and I went to bed.

28:50 Speaker 2: Next morning. When I got up, my eyes were swelled

28:52 Speaker 2: completely shut, and I was in so much pain that

28:55 Speaker 2: my mom took me to the emergency room in Indie

28:58 Speaker 2: at the hospital. When we were in the emergency room,

29:03 Speaker 2: I don't know why this is, but there was actually

29:07 Speaker 2: an eye doctor in there. I don't know if he

29:09 Speaker 2: was just visiting, passing through doing something, but he happened

29:13 Speaker 2: to be in the er somewhere. Somebody was able to

29:17 Speaker 2: get him to bring him to look at me, and

29:19 Speaker 2: he had my mom take me across the street to

29:21 Speaker 2: his office so he could closer examine me because he

29:25 Speaker 2: had more of his equipment there. So she did and

29:29 Speaker 2: they worked me in and the first thing he asked

29:31 Speaker 2: me was have you looked into the arc of a

29:33 Speaker 2: welders torch or the sun? And I'm like, at this point,

29:37 Speaker 2: I don't remember the light and the kids and that

29:41 Speaker 2: egg thing at that point, and I thought, to this guy,

29:45 Speaker 2: what the hell is wrong with you? Why you asked

29:46 Speaker 2: me some dumb shit like that. I'm thinking this. I

29:49 Speaker 2: would never say that to a doctor. I mean I

29:51 Speaker 2: might now, but back then I certainly wouldn't. But anyway,

29:58 Speaker 2: he was surprised that I hadn't had an any symptoms

30:00 Speaker 2: prior to when I woke up that morning, other than

30:04 Speaker 2: you know, I said, well, I didn't feel very good

30:05 Speaker 2: last night. They were burning a little bit, it was, apparently,

30:09 Speaker 2: he said, really bad. So I had drops and I

30:12 Speaker 2: some greasy vaseline gel stuff they put my eyes my

30:17 Speaker 2: eyes My vision changed instant immediately from that point forward

30:21 Speaker 2: in my life. I never wore glasses before, and all

30:23 Speaker 2: of a sudden, I'm extremely far sighted, so I'm like

30:26 Speaker 2: wearing plus two point fives when I'm you know, twenty four,

30:30 Speaker 2: and my eyes would even years later, my eyes would

30:36 Speaker 2: still all of a sudden start burning and water up

30:39 Speaker 2: and water real bad for an hour or two for

30:41 Speaker 2: no reason, and then go away. And before I get

30:45 Speaker 2: too distracted, I just want to say I was diagnosed

30:48 Speaker 2: with cataracts in my thirties and had to have both

30:51 Speaker 2: of my lens replaced. By the time I hit fifty,

30:55 Speaker 2: I think I might have been just at fifty. And

30:58 Speaker 2: also I was diagnosed with macular degeneration, Oh god, in

31:03 Speaker 2: my forties. Uh, age related macular degeneration in my forties.

31:08 Speaker 2: How do you? How does that work?

31:09 Speaker 1: But that's like a sixty year old Yeah, typically so

31:13 Speaker 1: even cataracts, you know, typically don't call that at thirty

31:18 Speaker 1: forty years old.

31:19 Speaker 2: Well, and that's why that's why I lasted till they

31:21 Speaker 2: resisted operating on and because of my age. But they

31:23 Speaker 2: were horrible. They were really bad. So but they finally

31:27 Speaker 2: did so they they.

31:30 Speaker 1: I mean for people who don't understand, it's almost like

31:36 Speaker 1: you sat to the doctor. What they're thinking is, did

31:41 Speaker 1: she sit and just stare at the song for ten minutes?

31:43 Speaker 2: I know, do you?

31:45 Speaker 1: Well, that's why I'm talking, dude, right, So so so

31:50 Speaker 1: what my I guess?

31:52 Speaker 2: Wow? So well, I need the story's not done yet.

31:56 Speaker 2: I just wanted to make point that out also, And

31:59 Speaker 2: you know, I have had some other health issues right

32:02 Speaker 2: since then as well. But I come home and the

32:06 Speaker 2: next day we're all out there a day or so

32:10 Speaker 2: we're all out there because it's the fourth of July

32:11 Speaker 2: and the family's over there for the fourth of July holiday.

32:15 Speaker 2: I don't know exactly the fourth of July, but my

32:21 Speaker 2: nephew brings it to our attention that there's this weird

32:23 Speaker 2: mark in the yard. So we all run out there

32:26 Speaker 2: and there's this mark in the yard and it's an

32:28 Speaker 2: eight foot diameter circle, and it has a swath going

32:32 Speaker 2: off of it that's forty nine feet long, goes all

32:34 Speaker 2: the way across the backyard to the driveway and ends

32:37 Speaker 2: in a perfect arc, and all the grass in it

32:39 Speaker 2: is just kind of a grays brown, and it just

32:42 Speaker 2: lays down right on top of this dirt that's now

32:47 Speaker 2: like a rock. And I'm looking at the mark. Mom's

32:53 Speaker 2: looking at it, and my mother kind of giggles and said, oh,

32:56 Speaker 2: that's where our UFO landed the other night. And when

32:59 Speaker 2: she said that, it was like somebody snapped a finger.

33:01 Speaker 2: And I remember turning around looking at her and thinking,

33:04 Speaker 2: what is wrong with you? And because she was laughing,

33:06 Speaker 2: then the kids were giggling. And then when I looked

33:08 Speaker 2: back in the mark, it was like someone slapped me

33:11 Speaker 2: in the face and woke me up, and I'm like,

33:15 Speaker 2: oh shit, I started. The first thing I remember was

33:18 Speaker 2: the light, and then I started remembering the kids. The

33:24 Speaker 2: thing the I hate to call it a craft because

33:27 Speaker 2: it's so little. Those six kids couldn't go in there

33:30 Speaker 2: and fly anywhere. I don't know what the hell it.

33:31 Speaker 1: Was, did you. I'm going to show you a picture,

33:37 Speaker 1: and it's a picture from a video that was just

33:41 Speaker 1: released on News Nation by this whistleblower apparently who worked

33:47 Speaker 1: on crash retrievals. And it's a craft being it's an egg.

33:54 Speaker 1: So I don't know if you could see this, but

33:58 Speaker 1: do you see what it's tethered?

34:00 Speaker 2: Yeah? I can see it on the end of that

34:02 Speaker 2: looks like it's in some kind of or something.

34:06 Speaker 1: Right, but so so the the witness says, that is

34:09 Speaker 1: an egg shaped craft. No surfaces, no doors, no nothing.

34:14 Speaker 1: Now does that look at all like what you saw?

34:18 Speaker 2: I mean, this is a The shape of it does

34:20 Speaker 2: for sure. I mean except for mine was sitting on

34:23 Speaker 2: its butt, like the big end on the ground and

34:25 Speaker 2: the pointy end on top right like that.

34:28 Speaker 1: But but so so so that so that egg shape,

34:32 Speaker 1: you know. Lani Zamura describes the shape that obviously we

34:37 Speaker 1: just saw they described that shape, and you you had

34:42 Speaker 1: your experiences with an egg shaped craft.

34:44 Speaker 2: Now. I remember seeing, or I think I remember seeing

34:48 Speaker 2: like little skinny legs coming out the widest part of it,

34:53 Speaker 2: but I wouldn't call them legs because they were like

34:55 Speaker 2: too little to like hold any weight. There was like

35:01 Speaker 2: four of them, and I don't know if they were

35:03 Speaker 2: just like trying to stabilize this because I told but

35:05 Speaker 2: I think at one point I almost wondered if it

35:08 Speaker 2: was actually touching the ground all the way, because it

35:12 Speaker 2: kind of bobbled a little bit. Have you ever looked

35:17 Speaker 2: at something through the heat of a fire, You know

35:19 Speaker 2: that little wavy It was kind of like that, Like, yeah,

35:23 Speaker 2: at something through the heat of a fire. It kind

35:25 Speaker 2: of wobbly. And I don't know that those little skinny

35:28 Speaker 2: things coming out the sides of it could actually support

35:31 Speaker 2: the weight of it. I mean, it was small, but

35:33 Speaker 2: those were pretty skinny, and I don't remember seeing them

35:36 Speaker 2: come out or go away. I don't even remember seeing

35:39 Speaker 2: the thing go away, right, It's like my mind just

35:42 Speaker 2: went completely blank after there.

35:44 Speaker 1: Was there was there's no discernible marks in the ground

35:47 Speaker 1: that would signify landing gear.

35:49 Speaker 2: There no there was a big crack on one side

35:54 Speaker 2: of the dirt and it was opened up.

35:57 Speaker 1: But no, no, not that.

36:00 Speaker 2: It's not that I remember. I mean it could have been.

36:05 Speaker 2: I mean it was forty two years ago. I don't.

36:08 Speaker 2: My main concern was just that thing. And I will

36:11 Speaker 2: tell you then after that, the mark in the yard

36:14 Speaker 2: lasted about three two or three years, maybe two. It

36:17 Speaker 2: didn't heal up for a full like three years. It's

36:20 Speaker 2: and the first winter when it snowed, snow melted off

36:24 Speaker 2: of it. What the fuck? And I mean there's pictures.

36:28 Speaker 2: I've got pictures on the web side of the mark.

36:30 Speaker 2: I've got pictures where the snow melted off. Bud had them.

36:33 Speaker 2: We sent them, like, what the hell?

36:36 Speaker 1: Even if you could say some of those, yeah.

36:38 Speaker 2: Sure, it's like even though the grass was laid down,

36:42 Speaker 2: you know what I mean in that area, there's been

36:46 Speaker 2: other places in the yard where the grass got mashed

36:48 Speaker 2: down with card tires or whatever and the snow didn't

36:51 Speaker 2: melt off of it. I did my own experiment with it,

36:54 Speaker 2: and I took I chunked out a hunk of it

36:56 Speaker 2: with a spade, and then I dug up some regular

37:00 Speaker 2: dirt elsewhere, and I put them in a cup of

37:02 Speaker 2: water overnight, and the regular dirt just turned into mud.

37:06 Speaker 2: But the stuff I was able to chunk out of

37:08 Speaker 2: the yard still was a rock. I still have samples

37:12 Speaker 2: of that that I saved. I chucked up a bunch

37:14 Speaker 2: of them. I don't know why I felt it was important.

37:16 Speaker 2: I don't know if there was anything after forty two years,

37:19 Speaker 2: but anyway, you know, and eventually Bud did. He did

37:24 Speaker 2: take some of the samples, and he did do I

37:26 Speaker 2: had the laboratory do it. I can't remember all that

37:29 Speaker 2: they found from it at the time, but it is

37:32 Speaker 2: written in The Intruders and in his book what they

37:35 Speaker 2: did with it. My dad and my uncle Jim had

37:38 Speaker 2: a Geiger counter from like World War two, and they

37:41 Speaker 2: swore up and down at worked. I don't know where

37:43 Speaker 2: the hell they got at, but they were out messing

37:45 Speaker 2: around with that Geiger counter for days and they could

37:48 Speaker 2: not get it to zero until they got like a

37:50 Speaker 2: half an acre away by behind the garage.

37:54 Speaker 1: So it was showing a radioactive signature.

37:56 Speaker 2: My dad said it was I cannot tell you that

37:59 Speaker 2: I know that. I don't know. I know what my

38:02 Speaker 2: dad said, but I mean, nobody came out to look.

38:07 Speaker 2: I even called the agricultural agent for the state of

38:10 Speaker 2: Indiana to ask them what could cause things like this

38:14 Speaker 2: in the yard. And I found people who could tell

38:17 Speaker 2: me what it was not, but I could never find

38:21 Speaker 2: someone tell me what it was right. And my father

38:25 Speaker 2: was a ham radio operator, so he had a big

38:27 Speaker 2: one hundred foot tower very close to this mark, and

38:32 Speaker 2: there's a coaxle cable running into the house that was

38:34 Speaker 2: attached to his radios, and within the coaxle cable, the

38:39 Speaker 2: metal itself was melted all together and wrecked. One of

38:44 Speaker 2: the transformer in the backyard by the poolhouse was damaged.

38:51 Speaker 2: I mean, there was a lot of things that happened

38:53 Speaker 2: that people aren't aware of. And like I said, my

38:56 Speaker 2: case was its forty some years old, and so a

39:00 Speaker 2: lot of people that are new to this don't don't

39:04 Speaker 2: know anything about it, don't know much about Bud. And

39:07 Speaker 2: then unfortunately, now both my parents are gone, the house

39:10 Speaker 2: has been sold. You know, I don't even know if

39:13 Speaker 2: the two neighbors that were witnesses that night are even

39:16 Speaker 2: still alive. I haven't talked to them in years and years, so,

39:19 Speaker 2: you know, Fortunately there's some documentation from Bud and some

39:24 Speaker 2: that I had. And that's about it. So when I

39:27 Speaker 2: tell my story to people, sometimes they look at me like, yeah, right, whatever,

39:32 Speaker 2: And I get it. Believe me. If I hadn't seen

39:35 Speaker 2: this shit by my own eyes, I would wonder, and

39:39 Speaker 2: I wondered myself sometimes, God, if I lost my mind?

39:43 Speaker 2: What the hell is wrong with me? You know? So

39:47 Speaker 2: you know I understand that. But yeah, and from that

39:50 Speaker 2: point on, after that night, I say, I had a

39:55 Speaker 2: nervous breakdown. I think I kind of did you know?

39:57 Speaker 2: I was terrified for my children. I had all kinds

40:01 Speaker 2: of weird memories coming back. I started having lucid dreams.

40:05 Speaker 2: There was a whole point in my life for like

40:07 Speaker 2: a year after that that I would have these I

40:11 Speaker 2: call them visions. I don't know how to explain it. It

40:15 Speaker 2: would wake me up in my sleep and I would

40:18 Speaker 2: see these shapes and numbers and ideas and words in

40:23 Speaker 2: my head, and it wouldn't leave me alone until I

40:26 Speaker 2: wrote it down. And once I took it out of

40:28 Speaker 2: my head and put it somewhere so that it didn't

40:31 Speaker 2: get lost, then I could go on about my business.

40:34 Speaker 2: I even started keeping a journal in a sketchbook in

40:36 Speaker 2: my car, and there was more than one time that

40:39 Speaker 2: I had to pull over because I couldn't even concentrate

40:42 Speaker 2: on my driving until whatever it was that came in

40:46 Speaker 2: my head that I wrote it down, and then I

40:48 Speaker 2: was okay, and I wrote down all kinds of weird stuff.

40:52 Speaker 2: Thankfully that only would happen about a year.

40:55 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would very be I'd be very interested.

40:59 Speaker 2: Well, some of it I've published in the book, and

41:01 Speaker 2: some of it Bud had, and Bud had hung on

41:04 Speaker 2: to some he didn't make it public because I think

41:09 Speaker 2: partly it was because he wanted to use it as control,

41:12 Speaker 2: you know, to when other people came just you know,

41:15 Speaker 2: you know, when everything out there in the open, because

41:18 Speaker 2: some people were and some people were, you know, just

41:22 Speaker 2: susceptible to absorbing that stuff and taking it as their own.

41:26 Speaker 2: Not consciously maybe, but.

41:30 Speaker 1: That's a good point, but it's it's.

41:32 Speaker 2: You know, it's a lot of it's out there now.

41:36 Speaker 2: And now I'm to the point where I don't have

41:38 Speaker 2: physical contact. I had a few other times after that

41:42 Speaker 2: initial big blast that was my the pivotal point of

41:46 Speaker 2: my life and my you know, I'd had some strange

41:49 Speaker 2: things happened to me before that, and I've had a

41:53 Speaker 2: couple of strange things happened to me after that physically,

41:56 Speaker 2: but at this point in my life, what I experience

42:00 Speaker 2: now is more psychological. Uh, Like I have you know,

42:11 Speaker 2: I have lucid dreams, okay, and stuff, and the lucid

42:14 Speaker 2: dreams happens is weird. And a couple of times I've

42:17 Speaker 2: been awake and I've had some weird something weird happened

42:20 Speaker 2: to me when.

42:20 Speaker 1: I was awake, a vision.

42:24 Speaker 2: I was actually taking a walk out in the summer,

42:28 Speaker 2: I mean out in the sun. It was the fall.

42:30 Speaker 2: I was just trying to absorb some of that last

42:33 Speaker 2: minute good weather, right because I live in Indiana.

42:35 Speaker 1: Eh.

42:35 Speaker 2: Yeah. I have my headphones on, listening to my tune,

42:38 Speaker 2: making myself feel really thin and just real connected to

42:41 Speaker 2: the earth and just relaxed, you know. And all of

42:45 Speaker 2: a sudden, I hear a man's voice and he says,

42:47 Speaker 2: hey Dad. So I pull my headphones off and I

42:51 Speaker 2: turn around to see who that could be. I didn't

42:53 Speaker 2: recognize the voice. I didn't see anybody. And I heard

42:58 Speaker 2: him again, and I was like, Okay, I'm used to this,

43:03 Speaker 2: you know, I don't freak out about it anymore. I said,

43:08 Speaker 2: you know, okay, Yeah, who are you? Uh? And he says,

43:15 Speaker 2: do you know where Let's see if I don't want

43:18 Speaker 2: to say it wrong, I wrote it down. Do you

43:20 Speaker 2: know where I am? You look like a little ball

43:23 Speaker 2: of light just floating around in the darkness, what y'all?

43:29 Speaker 2: And I and he said, I look like a little

43:33 Speaker 2: ball of light floating around in the darkness to you

43:36 Speaker 2: from where you are, But I look just like you

43:41 Speaker 2: where I am to me And I said, I said, uh,

43:46 Speaker 2: are you dead? You know, because I've been doing the

43:49 Speaker 2: paranormal stuff and recording these disembodied voices, And I said,

43:52 Speaker 2: are you dead? And he said he laughed, and he

43:55 Speaker 2: said I'm just as alive as you are. And I said,

43:59 Speaker 2: are you one of those aliens? One of those gray guys?

44:04 Speaker 2: And he laughed again and he said no. He said,

44:06 Speaker 2: they're your future. What I and I that's what I said.

44:12 Speaker 2: I'm like, uh, okay, and that it was quiet, and

44:16 Speaker 2: I'm still walking. I continued my walk now because I

44:19 Speaker 2: didn't want to look like I was a crazy person

44:21 Speaker 2: standing in the road talking to myself. So I was

44:24 Speaker 2: continuing to walk, hoping people would think I was just

44:26 Speaker 2: talking to somebody on my head and set on my phone.

44:28 Speaker 2: Thank God for cell phones now, you know, right right.

44:31 Speaker 1: I was gonna say the bluetooth thing too.

44:33 Speaker 2: But it stopped and I said, Hello, are you still there? Nope,

44:38 Speaker 2: he's gone. So and you know, a normal healthy person

44:43 Speaker 2: would think, Jesus Christ, I've lost my mind. I am

44:47 Speaker 2: having you know, my mind is gone. I'm shot.

44:50 Speaker 1: I'm hearing voices.

44:52 Speaker 2: And I don't typically hear voices. You know what I

44:55 Speaker 2: mean that? I actually thought there was a person standing

44:57 Speaker 2: behind me. H And it wasn't any of my you

45:01 Speaker 2: know you have. I have a thought voice that talks

45:04 Speaker 2: to me. I read. When I'm reading something, I'm reading

45:08 Speaker 2: it in my head too. I'm visual and auditory. I'm

45:14 Speaker 2: both right. It is with no voice i'd ever recognized.

45:19 Speaker 2: I've never heard before. I didn't know who that was,

45:21 Speaker 2: but he apparently knew me as it called my name

45:23 Speaker 2: got my attention.

45:25 Speaker 1: And he didn't he didn't is your is a part

45:28 Speaker 1: of me for asking? But is is your full actual

45:32 Speaker 1: full name? Debra?

45:34 Speaker 2: Yes?

45:35 Speaker 1: So, but he called you Debb.

45:38 Speaker 2: Hey deb like I've got you. I know, I've got

45:41 Speaker 2: EVPs that I've recorded it a paranormal things that says, hey,

45:46 Speaker 2: deb How you doing what I know that my my one,

45:51 Speaker 2: my one paranormal group, well the first one I started

45:53 Speaker 2: out with. When I began to connect the two things

45:57 Speaker 2: and think there's something to this. And I don't think

45:59 Speaker 2: I'm always recording dead people. I think I'm recording people

46:02 Speaker 2: that live here with me, only I just can't see them,

46:07 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Well there. They used to

46:11 Speaker 2: call me the antenna though, because my recorder would pick

46:15 Speaker 2: up the EVPs and nobody else would or maybe one

46:19 Speaker 2: other person we had. We did have one one time

46:21 Speaker 2: where my recorder picked it up and so did the

46:23 Speaker 2: camera that was videotaping the area also picked it up.

46:28 Speaker 2: This is so cool. We were doing a private residence

46:30 Speaker 2: in the first group that I was ever in, and

46:33 Speaker 2: the whole house was empty. The family complained about a

46:36 Speaker 2: little girl ghost that would run through the yard the

46:40 Speaker 2: house and wake them up at night, and there was

46:42 Speaker 2: no little girls in the family, so the family left.

46:44 Speaker 2: Our base station was set up in their garage, which

46:47 Speaker 2: was attached and the only thing in the house that

46:49 Speaker 2: it was alive was their little dog who and you know,

46:52 Speaker 2: every time she walked through the room, we'd always notate it,

46:56 Speaker 2: you know. Uh. For review purposes later. Right, So in

47:01 Speaker 2: one of the rooms, in the family room, I think

47:04 Speaker 2: my recorder was sitting on the table and we had

47:06 Speaker 2: a camera up in the corner of the room, but

47:08 Speaker 2: it also had a microphone on it. The dog walked

47:11 Speaker 2: into the room, walked past the end table, walked past

47:16 Speaker 2: the table with my recorder on it, and you very

47:19 Speaker 2: clearly hear a little voice say hi, Ginger, and the

47:23 Speaker 2: dog stops and lays down. Well, the dog's name was Ginger.

47:28 Speaker 2: Not only did we record it on my recorder, but

47:32 Speaker 2: the camera the microphone picked it up as well. So,

47:37 Speaker 2: I mean, and this it was phenomenal, That was amazing.

47:41 Speaker 2: And the very first EVP I ever recorded was like

47:44 Speaker 2: twenty five years ago, and it was the old man's

47:48 Speaker 2: voice and he said, are the spirits listening? And I

47:51 Speaker 2: had this epiphany. I'm like, holy shit, we're the spirits

47:54 Speaker 2: somewhere else, somebody's trying to listen to us.

47:57 Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, oh my god.

48:00 Speaker 2: You know, once that thought came out of my head,

48:02 Speaker 2: it and nothing was going back in.

48:04 Speaker 1: Right right, So wow, would have thought that or or

48:09 Speaker 1: what an interesting thought that maybe it's not that we're

48:13 Speaker 1: that we're picking up you know, ghosts. Uh it just

48:20 Speaker 1: and and hear me out of this. I've always said

48:22 Speaker 1: that I think I really don't think ghosts really exist,

48:26 Speaker 1: because you know, if if you're if you're fluent in

48:31 Speaker 1: you know, uithology, we hear about these kind of like

48:35 Speaker 1: soul contracts, and you know that we choose to come here. Well,

48:39 Speaker 1: that doesn't really leave room for ghosts because that would

48:42 Speaker 1: mean that our our our souls are constantly transitioning. And

48:46 Speaker 1: I just don't think ghosts would be the right word

48:49 Speaker 1: for it. Now, could it be? Could ghost be real

48:54 Speaker 1: in a different sense, like more of an echo that

48:57 Speaker 1: maybe the land holds or you know, structures hold this

49:03 Speaker 1: resonant frequency of an echo, you know, could that be real? Yes?

49:08 Speaker 1: But what if what you just said is correct and

49:11 Speaker 1: we're just channeling or hearing a different dimension and they're

49:16 Speaker 1: hearing us.

49:18 Speaker 2: And I think that's an option. I think there's multiple

49:23 Speaker 2: things that are going on. Have you, I don't know,

49:26 Speaker 2: you're kind of young, do you know? Do you remember

49:29 Speaker 2: VHS tapes? Yes? Yes, I do, of course, Okay, you know,

49:33 Speaker 2: and we were cheap, so we would erase things and

49:37 Speaker 2: re record our shows and erase them and re record

49:40 Speaker 2: them a million times, but eventually, when you recorded your show,

49:46 Speaker 2: you might see a little ghost of an older recording

49:51 Speaker 2: that was left on the tape. And in my brain,

49:55 Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, I'm just seeing a recording of something

50:01 Speaker 2: that's been here before that's kind of left the kind

50:04 Speaker 2: of a ghost imprint on the whatever it is we

50:09 Speaker 2: live in, right That That was my That was my

50:12 Speaker 2: thinking on what some of that could be as well.

50:15 Speaker 2: I mean I could be wrong, of course, that.

50:17 Speaker 1: That's probably one of the and and again that kind

50:21 Speaker 1: of goes goes with what I said. It's like, I'm

50:25 Speaker 1: in I'm in Massachusetts. I grew up in a next

50:30 Speaker 1: to a haunted, haunted road that has ties to Salem

50:35 Speaker 1: in the Witch trials. And there's the Bridgewater Triangle. And

50:40 Speaker 1: the funny thing at all these locations is the atrocities

50:45 Speaker 1: that happened there. So does the land or does the world?

50:51 Speaker 1: Like you said, is it is it? You know, like

50:54 Speaker 1: a tape and what we're seeing is, uh, you know,

50:59 Speaker 1: the veil because fast almost I think.

51:02 Speaker 2: The paranormal word would be residual, right right right?

51:07 Speaker 1: That is wow, that is very interesting and I definitely

51:12 Speaker 1: want to get into that more. But so all right,

51:17 Speaker 1: so you have your experience, your mom mentions UFO, it

51:23 Speaker 1: kind of starts coming back to you at this time.

51:29 Speaker 1: What happens next? Do you do you seek regression? And

51:32 Speaker 1: and what plays out? How do we get to where

51:36 Speaker 1: we are?

51:37 Speaker 2: Well? I wrote a letter to Bud and he contacted

51:40 Speaker 2: us and the investigations started, and then I eventually I

51:46 Speaker 2: went to New York. I saw my warshroom dryer that

51:49 Speaker 2: I had in storage to get enough money for a

51:51 Speaker 2: bus ticket to go there, and then I about jumped

51:54 Speaker 2: off the bus halfway there because I thought, what the

51:56 Speaker 2: hell's wrong with you? You're going to see a man in

51:58 Speaker 2: the big city of New York, which panicked me, you know,

52:03 Speaker 2: oh yeah, and this guy wrote a book about aliens

52:06 Speaker 2: and UFOs. He could be an axe murderer and you're

52:08 Speaker 2: a mother, what is wrong with you? And almost jump

52:11 Speaker 2: I had a major panic attack on the bus, but

52:14 Speaker 2: I didn't. I went. I went through with it, and

52:17 Speaker 2: when I got there, he was very kind and he

52:22 Speaker 2: immediately immediately took me to doctor Klamar's office, the psychiatrist

52:27 Speaker 2: in New York. We went there before I think we

52:29 Speaker 2: even went to his apartment. We went straight there and

52:31 Speaker 2: in retrospect, he was probably, you know, making sure I

52:36 Speaker 2: wasn't an axe murderer. I didn't think about it at

52:40 Speaker 2: the time, but you know, the investigation began and a

52:45 Speaker 2: lot of Bud brought in a lot of professionals and

52:48 Speaker 2: scientific minds to look at things, and then he wanted

52:52 Speaker 2: to write the book. The book got written, it was

52:55 Speaker 2: picked up, became a best seller, and eventually the rights

52:59 Speaker 2: to it were so to Tracy Tourmae. For a while,

53:03 Speaker 2: the Intruder's Mini series was loosely based on our story.

53:08 Speaker 2: It's got the name, and maybe one or two of

53:10 Speaker 2: the scenes in it were from the book, but everything

53:14 Speaker 2: else was basically compilations of other cases and not actually people,

53:18 Speaker 2: you know, which was made me kind of angry at

53:21 Speaker 2: the time because then I'd have people come up to

53:23 Speaker 2: me and say, oh, remember in the in the movie

53:25 Speaker 2: that you did this, and I'm like, I didn't do that.

53:27 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, not real, you know. It didn't feel I

53:30 Speaker 2: felt bad, but yet it but also now in retrospect,

53:34 Speaker 2: i'm they did a very respectful job of it, which

53:37 Speaker 2: was very unusual for the time, and so and it

53:42 Speaker 2: did it did open a lot of people's eyes. So

53:44 Speaker 2: it served a good purpose in the end, and for

53:47 Speaker 2: that I'm thankful. Right. I went on to have you know,

53:51 Speaker 2: strange encounters with people and other weird experiences. More paranormal

53:56 Speaker 2: stuff started to happen. I began to develop different kinds

54:01 Speaker 2: of I don't know, call them gifts, because I feel

54:04 Speaker 2: like everybody can do some of the things that I did.

54:08 Speaker 2: And just you know, I started changing and growing and

54:13 Speaker 2: looking at life and people in a whole different way,

54:16 Speaker 2: and the compelling in the driving me to speak out

54:25 Speaker 2: and tell my story and make people listen God. Stronger

54:28 Speaker 2: and stronger. I started to feel like something was coming

54:34 Speaker 2: and that I needed to do my part to help

54:37 Speaker 2: people be ready for it. Like, you know, I'm not

54:40 Speaker 2: any I'm not like a big deal, I'm not special

54:43 Speaker 2: in any way. There are millions of people just like

54:45 Speaker 2: me in the whole wide world. I just wanted the

54:48 Speaker 2: I just noticed. Maybe first I paid attention more, you know,

54:54 Speaker 2: And so you know, I wrote the books that I

55:00 Speaker 2: wrote were mostly for my grandkids, my granddaughter, and for

55:06 Speaker 2: people like me who had the experiences like I've had

55:10 Speaker 2: so they didn't feel so alone because I was really

55:14 Speaker 2: I had a couple experiences with my mom after that,

55:18 Speaker 2: and some weird things happened with neighbors after that, you know,

55:22 Speaker 2: and other family members. They're just there's so many. That's

55:25 Speaker 2: why I took my journals. Basically, I write down every

55:29 Speaker 2: weird thing that happened, right, and then that turned into

55:35 Speaker 2: two books. Right. And then I have the website. I've

55:39 Speaker 2: had that website for twenty some years, and I posted

55:41 Speaker 2: stuff on there, you know, just to so the people

55:45 Speaker 2: know they're not the only ones. Yeah, I might, maybe

55:49 Speaker 2: I'm crazy. I don't know. I mean, they tested me

55:52 Speaker 2: in New York and they said I wasn't crazy. I've

55:54 Speaker 2: been tested. They said I was above average intelligence, not

56:00 Speaker 2: own too delusions, not schizophrenic, not any of that. But

56:04 Speaker 2: I did exhibit symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder and anxiety,

56:08 Speaker 2: which I've suffered from anxiety since I was at least preteen, right,

56:16 Speaker 2: and now now PTSD. Not just for the weird stuff

56:21 Speaker 2: that happened before I got that testing, but afterwards, life

56:25 Speaker 2: has lobbed a couple of cherries at me, cherry bombs.

56:28 Speaker 2: You know. I watched my late husband commit suicide, and

56:31 Speaker 2: then I had a tornado drop a house on me,

56:34 Speaker 2: and I lost everything I owned and you know what,

56:37 Speaker 2: I continue to come out of the shit. Like my

56:41 Speaker 2: mom always said, I was the only kid that she

56:43 Speaker 2: ever had that could fall into a bucket of shit

56:45 Speaker 2: and come out smelling like a rose. Every time I

56:49 Speaker 2: feel blessed, and even looking at the most tragic parts

56:54 Speaker 2: of my life, I look at those as gifts because

57:00 Speaker 2: they showed me who I was and what I was

57:04 Speaker 2: capable of. And I know everybody out here is just

57:08 Speaker 2: like me, and I want them to remember that. I

57:11 Speaker 2: want them to realize that the whole disclosure thing, I'm

57:15 Speaker 2: so happy to see it starting to happen, and government

57:18 Speaker 2: starting to listen and people starting to speak out right,

57:20 Speaker 2: but people like me experiencers and they're, like I said,

57:24 Speaker 2: millions and millions of us belong in that narrative. We

57:30 Speaker 2: are an important piece of that puzzle and you will

57:34 Speaker 2: never get the whole story or the whole truth without us.

57:39 Speaker 2: So when Leslie invited me to be a part of

57:42 Speaker 2: that documentary, I literally physically had a response to it

57:48 Speaker 2: that told me that's what you should do next.

57:52 Speaker 1: So that's amazing that that is simply simply amazing. And

57:59 Speaker 1: by the way, it's so good for anyone out there.

58:03 Speaker 1: I know I said it in the intro, But season

58:06 Speaker 1: two of UFOs Investigating the Unknown does feature deb and uh,

58:11 Speaker 1: I think it's in the latter two episodes.

58:14 Speaker 2: It's episode four and five.

58:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, and and it's that that's I loved it. It

58:20 Speaker 1: was so well, very well done, and you you did

58:25 Speaker 1: a great job. When mhm, what what what do you

58:31 Speaker 1: think is the end? Now this is obviously maybe some

58:36 Speaker 1: speculation mixed with I don't know if some information that

58:40 Speaker 1: you've ever received, But what do you think that the

58:43 Speaker 1: endgame for for these abduction programs are? Did you ever

58:48 Speaker 1: get told any info by you know, a non human

58:54 Speaker 1: intelligence interaction?

58:56 Speaker 2: What?

58:56 Speaker 1: What?

58:57 Speaker 2: What? What?

58:58 Speaker 1: What are they doing?

59:01 Speaker 2: I've had some memories of some kinds of communication with them,

59:08 Speaker 2: with whatever it was that I had contact with. I

59:14 Speaker 2: can tell you what I was told, and I can

59:19 Speaker 2: tell you what my theory about it was. But I

59:22 Speaker 2: don't mean that. That don't mean it's right, and that

59:25 Speaker 2: don't mean it's the truth, because I don't know if

59:28 Speaker 2: they told me the truth or they just you know

59:30 Speaker 2: what I mean. But the one conversation, I guess, for

59:38 Speaker 2: lack of a better way to put it, wasn't his

59:41 Speaker 2: mouth didn't move, but I could hear him. Uh he was.

59:45 Speaker 2: He couldn't understand why I was upset with him, because

59:48 Speaker 2: what they were doing was good for them and good

59:52 Speaker 2: for us humans. And in my mind I visualized, because

1:00:04 Speaker 2: sometimes it was visualizations put in my mind that was

1:00:08 Speaker 2: how I communicate, was being communicated with, not words. And

1:00:12 Speaker 2: I saw a little kid being taken to the doctor,

1:00:17 Speaker 2: screaming and kicking and getting a shot from the doctor,

1:00:21 Speaker 2: a vaccine that was going to protect them later down

1:00:25 Speaker 2: the road from something that could be harmful to them.

1:00:29 Speaker 2: And so that was the message that was being communicated

1:00:33 Speaker 2: to me by this guy calling this thing this man.

1:00:39 Speaker 2: That's not that's the that's the idea that was being

1:00:47 Speaker 2: communicated to me by him, that what was happening was

1:00:54 Speaker 2: gonna save me later and gonna help them. But my

1:01:02 Speaker 2: opinion is I think there's a whole there's more than

1:01:05 Speaker 2: one kind of life out here interacting with us. There's

1:01:10 Speaker 2: more than one species, there's more than one agenda. I

1:01:13 Speaker 2: can only speak to what I had contact with, but

1:01:18 Speaker 2: I have no idea what the rest of them want.

1:01:21 Speaker 2: I can tell you also that I felt protected by them,

1:01:29 Speaker 2: like they were going to keep an eye on me,

1:01:31 Speaker 2: or they were going to take care of me, you know,

1:01:34 Speaker 2: which is weird, but sounds like they have though well

1:01:40 Speaker 2: in a way. I mean, I have some health issues

1:01:43 Speaker 2: now that honestly, I have no proof, but I kind

1:01:49 Speaker 2: of connected with the con the contact that I had

1:01:52 Speaker 2: with them, you know. But I don't think it was intentional.

1:01:57 Speaker 2: I think it was just like a an inadvertent side

1:02:02 Speaker 2: effect of some things that happened, like the light and

1:02:05 Speaker 2: whatever other stuff. But so I don't think it was benevolent.

1:02:11 Speaker 2: And I, you know, I always have every time I

1:02:14 Speaker 2: hear the negative, oh we got to be afraid narrative,

1:02:21 Speaker 2: the threat narrative. I was listening to the some video

1:02:25 Speaker 2: the other night and I was I heard that, and

1:02:27 Speaker 2: I said, out loud, I said, we're more of a

1:02:29 Speaker 2: threat to ourselves in the sky than they are. They

1:02:32 Speaker 2: know how to get out of the way. That's some bullshit.

1:02:36 Speaker 1: That is the truest statement I've heard.

1:02:38 Speaker 2: They know how to get out of the way. They

1:02:40 Speaker 2: you know, how many times have you heard somebody fly

1:02:43 Speaker 2: into a UFO and crash, but how many times you

1:02:45 Speaker 2: hear other people, you know, playing And I thought that,

1:02:48 Speaker 2: and I said that out loud. I'm like, you know, dummy,

1:02:50 Speaker 2: You're more of a threat to yourself than they are

1:02:52 Speaker 2: to us. You know, if anything, we're the scary ones.

1:02:57 Speaker 2: And I thought, you know.

1:02:59 Speaker 1: That at least unhinged.

1:03:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one of the like, one of the

1:03:03 Speaker 2: messages that I felt compelled, that I felt like I

1:03:06 Speaker 2: needed to pass through to other people was Look, I mean,

1:03:12 Speaker 2: I've had contact with them. I'm sixty six years old

1:03:15 Speaker 2: almost I'll be sixty six in a couple of weeks,

1:03:18 Speaker 2: and I'm still here. They didn't kill me. I had

1:03:22 Speaker 2: a decent life. They I should have been dead. There

1:03:27 Speaker 2: are a couple of times in my life when I

1:03:28 Speaker 2: should have been dead, but I didn't die. I even

1:03:33 Speaker 2: had an ND and I still came back. Okay, when

1:03:35 Speaker 2: I gave birth to my son.

1:03:38 Speaker 1: So do you mind if you.

1:03:42 Speaker 2: Want to hear about it?

1:03:43 Speaker 1: I fact, of course I do.

1:03:46 Speaker 2: But you know that, and I don't know. In the

1:03:49 Speaker 2: big picture, I think that it's all connected.

1:03:53 Speaker 1: Before you go into the ND, do you think that

1:03:57 Speaker 1: maybe just maybe this is where we get the notion

1:04:02 Speaker 1: of religion Guardian angels and oh sure, could that be?

1:04:08 Speaker 2: You know, I think we're just filtering all of what

1:04:11 Speaker 2: we're seeing around us with the culture that we have

1:04:15 Speaker 2: and the social social structure that we live in. I

1:04:19 Speaker 2: don't know how to say the words for good. I

1:04:21 Speaker 2: have the thoughts in the head, but I can't make

1:04:24 Speaker 2: the words come out good. But yeah, I mean I

1:04:26 Speaker 2: think that that's where I used to laugh and say

1:04:30 Speaker 2: Jesus was alien, you big dummy. He used to come

1:04:34 Speaker 2: and tell you know, I'm just being mouthy, so don't

1:04:39 Speaker 2: pay attention. But that thought would flat in my head sometimes.

1:04:45 Speaker 2: But you know, I mean, you're right, that's what I

1:04:47 Speaker 2: feel like, you know. And human beings, I mean, we're

1:04:53 Speaker 2: we're like I always say this, We're Adobe, We're tube

1:04:56 Speaker 2: type radio is in Adobe Digital Surround Sound world. Right,

1:05:00 Speaker 2: we are not made originally to receive a lot of

1:05:05 Speaker 2: the shit that's going on around us. And every now

1:05:08 Speaker 2: and then if something slips in, well it's got to

1:05:10 Speaker 2: be magic, or it's got to be God, or it's

1:05:12 Speaker 2: got to be Jesus, it's got to be something. I mean,

1:05:15 Speaker 2: I don't want to disrespect anybody's religion, but I am

1:05:17 Speaker 2: not a religious person. I was raised in the religious family.

1:05:22 Speaker 2: My family wasn't My immediate family wasn't religious, but my

1:05:25 Speaker 2: other family was. But there's a difference between religion and

1:05:32 Speaker 2: what I feel in spirit, you know, So I wouldn't

1:05:35 Speaker 2: go so far as to say I'm an atheist. I

1:05:37 Speaker 2: feel more like Deism and Buddhism combined, you know, Buddhism

1:05:42 Speaker 2: more way of life, just to respect life. But like

1:05:49 Speaker 2: I've got I'm squirreling you. I'm squirreling you. I'm sorry,

1:05:53 Speaker 2: but like I have, I have Wi Fi signals and

1:05:57 Speaker 2: TV signals, radio signals going through my room right now,

1:06:00 Speaker 2: but I don't know that because my brain's not manufactured

1:06:04 Speaker 2: to receive any of it. But my television is, my

1:06:07 Speaker 2: radio is my router, my computer is right. There's shit

1:06:12 Speaker 2: going all around us that lives with us. That's that knows,

1:06:16 Speaker 2: that's that's sentient, that's here, and we just can't see

1:06:21 Speaker 2: it yet, but some of us can. I feel like

1:06:25 Speaker 2: I got an extra wire harn. It's installed on June thirtieth,

1:06:28 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, and it's been it's been firing up

1:06:34 Speaker 2: ever since. You know.

1:06:36 Speaker 1: I love that, So, I really do. I love that.

1:06:39 Speaker 2: I'm weird as hell, but I say similar things. I'll

1:06:43 Speaker 2: talk to anybody that'll listen.

1:06:45 Speaker 1: I've kid you not. I've said almost not. I can't

1:06:49 Speaker 1: say verbatim, but very something very similar is you know,

1:06:56 Speaker 1: we talk about consciousness and what is consciousness? Is it,

1:07:00 Speaker 1: you know, a byproduct of the brain. I don't think so,

1:07:03 Speaker 1: I don't think. I think the brain is more of

1:07:09 Speaker 1: a receiver for consciousness. So you know, just like with

1:07:13 Speaker 1: the with the radio, you could smash the radio, but

1:07:17 Speaker 1: the signal is still coming, right, so the signal still exists.

1:07:20 Speaker 1: It's still there. But so so similar notions. Now, you

1:07:27 Speaker 1: know Leslie's is her show about I think it was

1:07:32 Speaker 1: called Surviving Death If I'm not mistaken, was the first

1:07:37 Speaker 1: time I'd ever really dove into near death experiences. It's

1:07:44 Speaker 1: very very it's dramatic, it's it's it's interesting to me,

1:07:53 Speaker 1: and I don't know where it falls, you know, on

1:07:55 Speaker 1: the non human intelligence scale and you know where it

1:07:59 Speaker 1: fits in. But yeah, i'd love to hear your nd

1:08:03 Speaker 1: and talk about some of the implications.

1:08:06 Speaker 2: My NDE was not a typical one. It was not

1:08:12 Speaker 2: typically one that you would hear. I didn't see a

1:08:14 Speaker 2: tunnel of light, and I didn't see Jesus and I

1:08:17 Speaker 2: didn't see the Devil. I didn't see anything, but I

1:08:20 Speaker 2: had I was pregnant with my first son, and I

1:08:25 Speaker 2: developed a clampsia and it progressed and with and resisted treatment.

1:08:34 Speaker 2: And this was forty five years ago. My son is

1:08:36 Speaker 2: forty five. Okay, so I should have been dead, but

1:08:42 Speaker 2: I was hospitalized. My liver and kidney functions began to

1:08:49 Speaker 2: slowly cease, and my mom and my husband were told

1:08:54 Speaker 2: they have to terminate my pregnancy, even though my son

1:08:58 Speaker 2: was still he was not due for six weeks, so

1:09:02 Speaker 2: he was six weeks premature. But if they didn't take

1:09:05 Speaker 2: him by cesare and early, I was going to die.

1:09:09 Speaker 2: I was already semi comatose at that point, and so

1:09:14 Speaker 2: my husband, because back then, your husband had to tell

1:09:18 Speaker 2: them what they could do with you, do it, you know,

1:09:22 Speaker 2: save my wife. And so they took him for an

1:09:28 Speaker 2: emergency sea section. And I remember there's two things that

1:09:33 Speaker 2: happened in this. They they gave they give you medication

1:09:36 Speaker 2: to paralyze you, and then they give you medication to

1:09:38 Speaker 2: unconscious you. And they gave me the medication to paralyze me.

1:09:42 Speaker 2: But they were a little I think light on the Yeah,

1:09:46 Speaker 2: it was. And I'll just tell you I've never seen

1:09:50 Speaker 2: a surgeon surgeon surgery before, but they don't just go whip.

1:09:54 Speaker 2: It was a pinch and a pool and a pinch

1:09:56 Speaker 2: and a pool, and it felt like a tear pinch, tear, pinch,

1:09:59 Speaker 2: tear as they got me open to take my baby

1:10:01 Speaker 2: out right, No, that's gross, I know. I tried to

1:10:03 Speaker 2: get their attention and let them know I could feel it.

1:10:05 Speaker 2: I tried to shake move myself, but I couldn't because

1:10:08 Speaker 2: I was paralyzed, and so my conscience was still aware,

1:10:12 Speaker 2: but my body was not was paralyzed. So anyway, at

1:10:19 Speaker 2: some point I think I did manage to get my

1:10:22 Speaker 2: legs to move enough that somebody noticed, and that I

1:10:25 Speaker 2: felt a strap go down tight on my legs, and

1:10:28 Speaker 2: then I was out. But at that point I was

1:10:34 Speaker 2: hearing the doctors talking about a sailboat at Geist Reservoir, okay,

1:10:38 Speaker 2: and there were several there was a bunch of people

1:10:40 Speaker 2: in the surgery. There's a bunch of people in that

1:10:42 Speaker 2: operating room when I had my baby, a bunch, And

1:10:45 Speaker 2: I heard somebody said something about Geists Reservoir and a sailboat, right,

1:10:50 Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, all the noise in

1:10:53 Speaker 2: the chatter that I was hearing started to fade away,

1:10:58 Speaker 2: and it felt like I was moving into another room,

1:11:03 Speaker 2: it faded and faded and faded to the point where

1:11:06 Speaker 2: it was dead silent. And the moment that it became silent,

1:11:12 Speaker 2: I felt a disconnect and it was almost I could

1:11:16 Speaker 2: almost hear. It was like a pop, and I literally

1:11:20 Speaker 2: disconnected from my body and I am in my body.

1:11:25 Speaker 2: I think it's my body, but right now I exist.

1:11:29 Speaker 2: I am. I cannot see my hands, I can't see

1:11:33 Speaker 2: anything about me, but I am, and I'm trapped and

1:11:39 Speaker 2: I start pounding on this black wall in front of me,

1:11:45 Speaker 2: and I'm pounding with my fists and I am screaming

1:11:47 Speaker 2: at the top of my lungs. Let me out. I'm not dead,

1:11:52 Speaker 2: Let me out. And I'm pounding right and then I

1:11:57 Speaker 2: hear a voice, and in retrospect, I think it was

1:12:04 Speaker 2: a nurse that whispered in my ear during this time.

1:12:09 Speaker 2: But you know, that's my logical side, and it could

1:12:13 Speaker 2: very well be that it was a nurse, and if

1:12:15 Speaker 2: she was, she was an angel, because somebody whispered in

1:12:18 Speaker 2: my ear, you can't leave yet. Your baby needs you.

1:12:23 Speaker 2: You have a baby. And as soon as I heard

1:12:26 Speaker 2: her say you have a baby that needs you, I

1:12:29 Speaker 2: was like, ah, I have a baby. Because when I

1:12:32 Speaker 2: disconnected and started pounding, I completely forgot about the baby,

1:12:37 Speaker 2: all my life here or anything about me here, right.

1:12:41 Speaker 2: I just wanted out. I didn't want to be in

1:12:43 Speaker 2: this box anymore. Let me out. I forgot about my baby.

1:12:46 Speaker 2: And let me tell you what all I ever wanted

1:12:48 Speaker 2: to be was a mother. So as that woman said

1:12:51 Speaker 2: to me, that voice said, your baby needs you, I

1:12:55 Speaker 2: was like. And as soon as that happened, I reconnected

1:13:01 Speaker 2: and I could start to hear them again, but they

1:13:04 Speaker 2: and then they got louder and louder, and people were

1:13:06 Speaker 2: screaming and yelling, and there was banging and clanging going around.

1:13:10 Speaker 2: And then I realized I couldn't breathe, and I was like,

1:13:15 Speaker 2: you know, I was like, I can't breathe. And then

1:13:19 Speaker 2: I all of a sudden, I think somebody put a

1:13:24 Speaker 2: tube down my throat or whatever and started pumping oxygen

1:13:27 Speaker 2: into me. Because I remember, I don't know that that

1:13:31 Speaker 2: I'm assuming that's what happened. I didn't see it, but

1:13:36 Speaker 2: I as soon as that air started coming in my lungs,

1:13:39 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, thank god. And I started gulping

1:13:42 Speaker 2: it down like I was just swallowing big gulps of

1:13:46 Speaker 2: air and it felt so good, thank God, and I

1:13:48 Speaker 2: was just gulping it in right, And then I became

1:13:53 Speaker 2: somewhat consciously aware they were lifting my body off of

1:13:57 Speaker 2: the table and onto a stretcher. But then I blacked

1:14:02 Speaker 2: out again and I started shaping. I remember jerking, and

1:14:06 Speaker 2: then everything went black again, and then I woke up again.

1:14:12 Speaker 2: I was on the table again, and then they and

1:14:15 Speaker 2: the breathing and swallowing the air again and this time

1:14:20 Speaker 2: and they put me on the stretcher and they hauled

1:14:22 Speaker 2: me off and I went into the ICU. And I

1:14:26 Speaker 2: was later told and I didn't even know this when

1:14:29 Speaker 2: I was in the hospital, and then I was told

1:14:31 Speaker 2: this later that I went into cardiac arrest twice and

1:14:35 Speaker 2: had to be resuscitated twice in the operating room. Now,

1:14:42 Speaker 2: so that was my near death experience, which is not

1:14:44 Speaker 2: fancy and pretty, and frankly, it did two things. It

1:14:48 Speaker 2: made me realize when we die, we're not dead. But

1:14:52 Speaker 2: then I started having nightmare like, holy shit, what if

1:14:54 Speaker 2: I die and I can't get out. I actually I

1:14:58 Speaker 2: had another dream years later where I was told that

1:15:02 Speaker 2: when it's time for me to go, I'll be able

1:15:04 Speaker 2: to get out. I won't have to scream for help.

1:15:08 Speaker 2: It's freaking weird. I know you go from that, I

1:15:12 Speaker 2: mean Jesus Well, like I said, I came away from

1:15:16 Speaker 2: that having an entirely new respect for life. I came

1:15:21 Speaker 2: away from that. No, I'm afraid of pain, but death. No.

1:15:29 Speaker 2: I had a friend a few years ago that found

1:15:31 Speaker 2: out she was terminal with brain cancer and she called me.

1:15:33 Speaker 2: She's like, Debbie, I don't know what to do. I've

1:15:35 Speaker 2: never done this before. I said, what do you mean,

1:15:37 Speaker 2: what are you talking about? She said, I've never died before.

1:15:39 Speaker 2: I said, I said, you were dead before you got here,

1:15:43 Speaker 2: and you were pretty good with it. I said, you'll

1:15:45 Speaker 2: be fine. She's like, oh my god, I never thought

1:15:48 Speaker 2: of it that way. I know we don't die these bodies.

1:15:54 Speaker 2: I got a raggedy ass body. It ain't gonna last forever.

1:15:58 Speaker 2: But I am energy, you know what. I'm energy everybody.

1:16:03 Speaker 2: And that's another thing. I want people to realize people.

1:16:06 Speaker 2: I think I feel like people have forgotten who they

1:16:07 Speaker 2: are what they are. Human beings are powerful, energetic beings

1:16:12 Speaker 2: with powerful thoughts. Your thoughts are powerful. Look around you.

1:16:15 Speaker 2: Everything in this whole world began in somebody's mind as

1:16:19 Speaker 2: a thought, you have the power to change everything you do.

1:16:24 Speaker 2: Don't pass it off. Don't give somebody else that power

1:16:27 Speaker 2: that's yours. So and you know what I had I

1:16:33 Speaker 2: not had that experience in June thirtieth eighty three, I

1:16:36 Speaker 2: highly doubt that I would have been And I, like

1:16:41 Speaker 2: I said, I could be completely batshit crazy, but you know,

1:16:43 Speaker 2: I'm harmless than I try to help people. So well,

1:16:46 Speaker 2: after I moved out of my parents' house, after you know,

1:16:49 Speaker 2: I put myself through beauty school, and my mom, you know,

1:16:52 Speaker 2: god lover, she watched my kids while I went to

1:16:54 Speaker 2: beauty school, got a way to support everybody, you know,

1:16:57 Speaker 2: me and the kids, and got my own apartment. Moved

1:16:59 Speaker 2: into this apartment far east side of Indy and there's

1:17:04 Speaker 2: a lot of single moms there with kids. And there

1:17:06 Speaker 2: was a gal who lived in the apartment above mine

1:17:08 Speaker 2: who had a little boy about my kids's age, and

1:17:13 Speaker 2: we became friends, and eventually she heard about some of

1:17:20 Speaker 2: the weird stuff that happened to us because she'd come

1:17:22 Speaker 2: down hang around, and my mom would come over sometimes

1:17:24 Speaker 2: and we'd have coffee. And one day she came downstairs

1:17:29 Speaker 2: and she said, Hey, were you screaming? For help last night,

1:17:31 Speaker 2: and I said, no, why our bedrooms were hers was

1:17:34 Speaker 2: right above the mind. I'm like, no, why, what's wrong?

1:17:36 Speaker 2: She I don't know. I kept hearing you screaming, you

1:17:38 Speaker 2: are calling out for help. I kept hearing your voice.

1:17:40 Speaker 2: And I said, no, it wasn't me, you know, And

1:17:43 Speaker 2: I'm not prom to talk in my sleep or anything

1:17:45 Speaker 2: like that. And then she's then like the day or

1:17:49 Speaker 2: two later, she came back down and said, I woke

1:17:52 Speaker 2: up the other night and there was a bunch of

1:17:53 Speaker 2: little guys standing around my bed at the foot of

1:17:55 Speaker 2: my bed, and they all had hooded robes on. I'm like,

1:17:57 Speaker 2: I never seen nothing with no hooded robe on, so

1:18:00 Speaker 2: don't blame me. And then it was not too long

1:18:05 Speaker 2: after that she said that we our balcony. Her balcony

1:18:09 Speaker 2: had a metal railing around it. The balcony had metal

1:18:14 Speaker 2: railings around him. And she said she was awaken at

1:18:19 Speaker 2: night one night by the railing on her balcony rattling

1:18:22 Speaker 2: like mad. And she came downstairs and she's like, you know,

1:18:27 Speaker 2: weird shit never stopped, never happened until you moved in.

1:18:30 Speaker 2: What is that? What is up with? I don't know.

1:18:33 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I'm sorry.

1:18:36 Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because it followed a lot of

1:18:38 Speaker 2: us siblings. Where we moved to. People always thought, oh,

1:18:41 Speaker 2: it's the house that you lived in was like old

1:18:43 Speaker 2: burial ground or something like that, you know. No, No,

1:18:46 Speaker 2: the people that moved into mom and Dad's house after

1:18:48 Speaker 2: we moved out, eventually they found out about intruders and

1:18:52 Speaker 2: all the weird shit that happened in that house. And

1:18:55 Speaker 2: I heard through a mutual friend of ours that and

1:18:59 Speaker 2: the time that they have lived there since they have

1:19:01 Speaker 2: had nothing zero, nothing weird has ever happened there. Yeah.

1:19:07 Speaker 2: I thought you were doing something I don't know.

1:19:09 Speaker 1: But no, no, I accidentally hit a butt. How long

1:19:14 Speaker 1: was that?

1:19:15 Speaker 2: I don't know.

1:19:15 Speaker 1: Maybe, Oh my god, No, that's terrible.

1:19:19 Speaker 2: You're you can understand. You though that I was kind

1:19:23 Speaker 2: of cute. I thought it was a sound effect.

1:19:25 Speaker 1: It is a sound effect.

1:19:27 Speaker 2: A few minutes.

1:19:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, thank god, because I was like, how long

1:19:32 Speaker 1: did I just sound like a mouse?

1:19:39 Speaker 2: I thought it was I thought you were doing it

1:19:41 Speaker 2: on purpose. I'm like, okay, no, I have this thing.

1:19:47 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's different sound effects.

1:19:51 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I think Greg has like a but.

1:19:54 Speaker 1: There's this green one. And I was I must have

1:19:58 Speaker 1: touched this.

1:19:59 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, sounds like you just sucked on a

1:20:04 Speaker 2: helium balloon. That's what it sounds like.

1:20:07 Speaker 1: Well, whatever, whatever, This is what happens when you do

1:20:14 Speaker 1: because I I I noticed the button was like lit

1:20:17 Speaker 1: up and I was like, wait a second, why is that?

1:20:20 Speaker 1: Why is that lit up like that? But yeah, that

1:20:23 Speaker 1: was pretty embarrassing. But when you don't have a producer

1:20:27 Speaker 1: that's listening and going, hey, dude, you sound like a

1:20:30 Speaker 1: goddamn chipmunk. She saw hooded.

1:20:34 Speaker 2: Little hooded guys. Yeah, hooded figures, little ones all around

1:20:38 Speaker 2: like little with She couldn't see their faces and they

1:20:40 Speaker 2: just like had capes and hoods on. And I'm like,

1:20:43 Speaker 2: I've never seen those guys before, so you can't blame

1:20:46 Speaker 2: me on that. I don't know what that ship's about. That. Yeah,

1:20:50 Speaker 2: And this is a gal who she had no no

1:20:55 Speaker 2: knowledge or even interest in UFO stuff back then when

1:21:00 Speaker 2: we met, but she thought it was interesting, and I mean,

1:21:03 Speaker 2: she knew me, and that's the same. That's the thing,

1:21:07 Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure there's a lot of people out

1:21:09 Speaker 2: there that are going to listen to me and have

1:21:12 Speaker 2: heard me for the last forty years and think bit's crazy.

1:21:15 Speaker 2: You know, Wow, she lost her mind. And you know what,

1:21:18 Speaker 2: that's fine. I understand and and you are entitled to

1:21:22 Speaker 2: your opinion. You don't know me, uh but I get it.

1:21:26 Speaker 2: It's okay. But I and I you know, I used

1:21:32 Speaker 2: to be a people pleaser and it used to really

1:21:34 Speaker 2: bother me and hurt my feelings with people thought I

1:21:36 Speaker 2: was lying because I didn't lie about anything and I

1:21:38 Speaker 2: didn't want to be thought of as a liar. But

1:21:41 Speaker 2: people did, you know, back in the day. But I

1:21:43 Speaker 2: felt like at now, I don't give a shit what

1:21:47 Speaker 2: people think. I am telling you my story and I'm

1:21:51 Speaker 2: trying to, you know, be clear when I'm telling you

1:21:55 Speaker 2: my opinion based upon you know, my things I saw.

1:22:00 Speaker 2: And the difference between my opinion and the facts is

1:22:02 Speaker 2: I know them. And all the people in my life

1:22:05 Speaker 2: that matter to me that I do care about what

1:22:08 Speaker 2: they think, they know the truth. They know me. You know.

1:22:13 Speaker 2: Here's an example. When I met my current husband thirty

1:22:16 Speaker 2: years ago, I felt like, Okay, I got to tell

1:22:19 Speaker 2: this guy about this weird shit. I'd gone on a

1:22:23 Speaker 2: date or two with him, and I'm like, I really

1:22:25 Speaker 2: like this guy, and you know, I would like for

1:22:27 Speaker 2: it to go further, but I this is kind of

1:22:30 Speaker 2: hard to hide. There's like a book written about my

1:22:33 Speaker 2: whole family, you know what I'm saying. So after like

1:22:37 Speaker 2: the third date, I gave him Bud's book Intruders, and

1:22:42 Speaker 2: I had already written the first book with my sister abducted.

1:22:45 Speaker 2: So I gave him these two books and I said,

1:22:47 Speaker 2: read this one first, and then read this one, and

1:22:50 Speaker 2: then if you still want to go out with me

1:22:51 Speaker 2: on that third or what or fourth date, call me.

1:22:55 Speaker 2: So he took him. He's like okay, So he took

1:22:57 Speaker 2: him home and he read them and I didn't hear

1:22:59 Speaker 2: from him for over a week, and I thought, damn it,

1:23:01 Speaker 2: I liked that one too. Oh well, you know, shit happens.

1:23:04 Speaker 2: I'll move on. But then the phone ring one day

1:23:08 Speaker 2: and it was him, and I thought, well, here we go.

1:23:12 Speaker 2: I said, well, so did you read the books? He goes,

1:23:15 Speaker 2: I did, and then he didn't say anything else. I'm like,

1:23:18 Speaker 2: oh shit, and I said, well what you think and

1:23:20 Speaker 2: he goes, well, I'll tell you. I feel like I

1:23:23 Speaker 2: know you well enough to know now that you're not

1:23:26 Speaker 2: a liar, and I don't think you're crazy. I really don't.

1:23:32 Speaker 2: So the only other option is something's happening to you

1:23:36 Speaker 2: and your family, and honestly, I want to know more.

1:23:41 Speaker 2: And I'm like, thank you Jesus you. And then you know,

1:23:46 Speaker 2: six months later we were married and we're going to

1:23:48 Speaker 2: be married thirty years this April. So wow. But so

1:23:52 Speaker 2: I'm so My point is people like the people like

1:23:55 Speaker 2: care Thank you, the people I care about, they know.

1:23:58 Speaker 2: So if you don't want to believe me, that's fine.

1:24:01 Speaker 2: Whatever makes you comfortable, that's fine.

1:24:04 Speaker 1: Well that's what I honestly find with most experiencers, you know,

1:24:12 Speaker 1: they the people that say that that that they're just

1:24:16 Speaker 1: past trying to convince anybody that their story is real.

1:24:22 Speaker 2: That you know, you've never been I have never my

1:24:27 Speaker 2: My whole goal has never been to try to convince

1:24:30 Speaker 2: people that I'm telling them the truth or tell my

1:24:32 Speaker 2: whole goal would be it was just to share what

1:24:35 Speaker 2: I remember and what I've seen that I just wanted

1:24:39 Speaker 2: people to know about it because I knew there were

1:24:41 Speaker 2: other people out there that knew that they'd had.

1:24:44 Speaker 1: It, right do you?

1:24:47 Speaker 2: Now?

1:24:48 Speaker 1: You you have been kind of if you want to

1:24:52 Speaker 1: call it a voice for experiencers, uh, with with what

1:24:58 Speaker 1: you've which with with which what you've done in talking

1:25:03 Speaker 1: to experiencers and kind of getting you know, a range

1:25:07 Speaker 1: of stories and experiences from people that confided in you.

1:25:14 Speaker 1: Would you think something that's talked about is this hybridization

1:25:17 Speaker 1: program taking eggs from women and you know, manipulating DNA.

1:25:27 Speaker 1: Is this something that you think could actually be happening.

1:25:32 Speaker 1: Is it something that you've heard.

1:25:33 Speaker 2: Of, Well, yeah, it's something I've heard of. I had

1:25:36 Speaker 2: a missing pregnancy that was pretty well documented in Intruders.

1:25:43 Speaker 2: I don't know why I told Bud about it to

1:25:44 Speaker 2: begin with. When I had that pregnancy disappear, we didn't

1:25:50 Speaker 2: speak about it for years in the family, and I

1:25:53 Speaker 2: went on to go ahead and marry the the fiance

1:25:57 Speaker 2: I had when I found out I was pregnant ahead

1:26:00 Speaker 2: and got married and then had two other kids. But

1:26:07 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, once I started to remember things in

1:26:10 Speaker 2: my past after I saw the mark in the yart

1:26:13 Speaker 2: on June thirtieth eighty three, that pregnancy came back to me.

1:26:17 Speaker 2: The memory of that and the memory of the events

1:26:21 Speaker 2: that happened prior to it, and it was something I

1:26:25 Speaker 2: couldn't stop think about or make go away. And then

1:26:30 Speaker 2: when Bud started the investigation, it might have been the

1:26:33 Speaker 2: second time he came to Indiana. I can't remember exactly when,

1:26:39 Speaker 2: but I had taken him to another home. I think

1:26:43 Speaker 2: it was in Greenfield, Indiana. There had been a similar

1:26:46 Speaker 2: event around the same time a few years before mine,

1:26:51 Speaker 2: I think. And then she had written to him, so

1:26:54 Speaker 2: I took him out there. I drove him out there

1:26:56 Speaker 2: to meet her and talk to them. And when we

1:27:00 Speaker 2: got home, I pulled him in the driveway and I

1:27:02 Speaker 2: remember I sat there for a minute and I looked

1:27:04 Speaker 2: at him and he I remember his face because he

1:27:07 Speaker 2: was looking at me, like what you know, And I said,

1:27:11 Speaker 2: you know, I had a pregnancy that disappeared, and I

1:27:14 Speaker 2: could see his face. He was like, what you know?

1:27:19 Speaker 2: And then he's like, well, I'm really sorry about that.

1:27:21 Speaker 2: I'm sorry to hear that. And then I busted out

1:27:23 Speaker 2: crying and I'm like, I have no idea why I

1:27:26 Speaker 2: said that to you. I feel like I'm more on

1:27:28 Speaker 2: right now. I feel like an idiot. I don't know why.

1:27:31 Speaker 2: And he took the information, and then when the book

1:27:36 Speaker 2: was written, he says he wanted to include that because

1:27:40 Speaker 2: I had I had a dream that I called a

1:27:44 Speaker 2: dream in November of the year before where I was

1:27:48 Speaker 2: with two other girls in a car out in the Boonies.

1:27:51 Speaker 2: We were stalking her boyfriend and we saw a UFO

1:27:55 Speaker 2: in the sky. I actually didn't remember it coming down

1:27:58 Speaker 2: to the ground. The girl driving actually did remember it

1:28:02 Speaker 2: coming down to the ground. I remembered our car being

1:28:05 Speaker 2: enveloped in this like black smokey missed and feeling as

1:28:08 Speaker 2: if I was being dragged out of the car by

1:28:10 Speaker 2: my feet. But and then I found out I was

1:28:15 Speaker 2: pregnant in like January of the following year. I had

1:28:20 Speaker 2: only I'd been with my boyfriend and we only had

1:28:23 Speaker 2: sex like on Christmas Eve, so I knew I know

1:28:26 Speaker 2: how I got pregnant, even though I was young, right,

1:28:29 Speaker 2: so I assumed it was his. And and then through

1:28:35 Speaker 2: a series of events, I went to the doctor and

1:28:39 Speaker 2: got the pregnancy confirmed. And then in March, I think

1:28:44 Speaker 2: it is in March, I had another dream where I

1:28:50 Speaker 2: saw the guys, the gray guys, and they did some

1:28:56 Speaker 2: kind of operation on me in some place I don't

1:28:59 Speaker 2: know how I got there. And I woke up. I

1:29:01 Speaker 2: was no longer on the couch, but I was on

1:29:03 Speaker 2: in my niece's bed. But in my mind when I

1:29:06 Speaker 2: woke up, the first thing I thought it, Oh my god,

1:29:08 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with my baby. I went to check

1:29:11 Speaker 2: and there was nothing going on down there, you know,

1:29:13 Speaker 2: and then went back to the got a pregnancy test

1:29:17 Speaker 2: and it was negative. Went back to the doctor and

1:29:20 Speaker 2: he gave me a pregnancy test and pelvic exam, and

1:29:22 Speaker 2: then he took my mom and me into his office

1:29:25 Speaker 2: and he says, we see this from time to time.

1:29:30 Speaker 2: You're young, you'll have other children. My suggestion to you

1:29:34 Speaker 2: is that you forget this ever happened. And I thought,

1:29:37 Speaker 2: I ain't never forget this. Even my mom said, well,

1:29:41 Speaker 2: does she need to have, you know, a DNC or something,

1:29:44 Speaker 2: you know, And he's like, no, there's nothing wrong with her.

1:29:46 Speaker 2: She's fine. So what the I mean? I know, well,

1:29:53 Speaker 2: I mean and this was forty How.

1:29:55 Speaker 1: Do you rationalize that though as a doctor saying.

1:29:59 Speaker 2: Well, he's I said that they already just forget about it. Well,

1:30:03 Speaker 2: first of all, this was in the seventies, but there

1:30:06 Speaker 2: was and I was a girl, right, I don't know.

1:30:11 Speaker 2: He said, we see this from time to time, and

1:30:14 Speaker 2: it happens. I didn't get any kind of a good

1:30:17 Speaker 2: explanation for it, but I wasn't about to confront him

1:30:21 Speaker 2: over it. Yeah, yeah, but I was a seventeen year

1:30:24 Speaker 2: old or well just turned eighteen year old. You know,

1:30:30 Speaker 2: girl in the seventies, you don't talk to men like that,

1:30:33 Speaker 2: especially a doctor.

1:30:35 Speaker 1: But you know, right right anyway, Yeah, that's a good place.

1:30:39 Speaker 2: And then I did also have a few dreams after

1:30:43 Speaker 2: that where I actually saw her with them and she

1:30:47 Speaker 2: was older, you know, And I always felt in my

1:30:51 Speaker 2: heart that that was my kid, even though I don't.

1:30:54 Speaker 2: I can't prove that, and it sounds like crazy shit,

1:30:57 Speaker 2: and I know that, I know it sounds crazy. But

1:31:00 Speaker 2: Bud started getting letters from women all over the place.

1:31:02 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you're not alone, you are far

1:31:05 Speaker 1: from it.

1:31:05 Speaker 2: So he starts showing me letters from people. And one

1:31:09 Speaker 2: thing I was concerned about is like, I've seen the

1:31:11 Speaker 2: headlines from weekly world news. You know, I had eight

1:31:14 Speaker 2: thousand alien babies and blah blah blah, b I'm not

1:31:18 Speaker 2: that girl. I got pregnant one time and it went away,

1:31:20 Speaker 2: it disappeared, and I don't know why. I'm not that girl,

1:31:23 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to be. I lost a baby

1:31:27 Speaker 2: period period, you know, all of the emotions that go

1:31:32 Speaker 2: along with that. I was dealing with you know, I

1:31:35 Speaker 2: didn't want to get pregnant, and when I found out

1:31:37 Speaker 2: I was, it was a shock to me and my boyfriend.

1:31:40 Speaker 2: And eventually we got used to the idea and started

1:31:44 Speaker 2: to love it, warm up to it, and then it

1:31:46 Speaker 2: goes away. You know. So I'm dealing with all that

1:31:49 Speaker 2: grief and loss, and so when you know, I didn't

1:31:54 Speaker 2: want to tell people about it publicly, and I'm like it,

1:32:00 Speaker 2: you know, I don't. It was embarrassing to me. It

1:32:06 Speaker 2: was hard, it hurt, it was embarrassing, and I just felt,

1:32:11 Speaker 2: you know, like I didn't want to add that. I

1:32:13 Speaker 2: didn't want that to be in the book. And Bud's like, look,

1:32:15 Speaker 2: here's all these letters, and he starts dumping these hundreds

1:32:18 Speaker 2: of letters on. He's like, there's other women out there

1:32:20 Speaker 2: that have been through this. They know there's a connection.

1:32:23 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, but somehow there's a connection.

1:32:26 Speaker 2: And during that time that I saw that, like I said,

1:32:29 Speaker 2: when I saw the child older, remember when I told

1:32:33 Speaker 2: you earlier that I had a conversation of sorts with

1:32:36 Speaker 2: one of those creatures. That was when he told me

1:32:39 Speaker 2: this was good. He couldn't understand why I was angry

1:32:42 Speaker 2: because I wanted to take her home with me where

1:32:45 Speaker 2: she belonged, and he said, you can't feed her. She

1:32:47 Speaker 2: will die with you. I don't understand why you're so mad.

1:32:51 Speaker 2: This is a good thing. This is good for us,

1:32:54 Speaker 2: it's good for you. It's a good thing. And I'm like,

1:32:58 Speaker 2: I don't understand any of this, right, yeah.

1:33:01 Speaker 1: Ye, so, so so what do you what do you

1:33:06 Speaker 1: what do you take? What do you take from that that?

1:33:09 Speaker 1: What are they trying to blend in with us?

1:33:13 Speaker 2: I don't know. Here's these are theories of mine. They

1:33:19 Speaker 2: don't it's a theory. It's an idea. Doesn't mean shit.

1:33:22 Speaker 2: It's right, it's doesn't don't take it as fact because

1:33:25 Speaker 2: I don't know. After that conversation with him, and also

1:33:32 Speaker 2: later on, not just that one time I heard that

1:33:37 Speaker 2: disembodied voice, but I've had other times where I've had

1:33:40 Speaker 2: the lucid dreams where I've been told that the Gray

1:33:43 Speaker 2: guys are actually us in the future. My personal theory

1:33:49 Speaker 2: is they're trying to come back and fix something or

1:33:53 Speaker 2: modify something for themselves, frankly, but in a way for us,

1:33:59 Speaker 2: because they are they're.

1:34:00 Speaker 1: Us, right it almost yeah? Yeah, So it seems like

1:34:05 Speaker 1: and if you just take their appearance. It seems like

1:34:09 Speaker 1: they destroyed their atmosphere and or or or there was

1:34:16 Speaker 1: some sort of catagalismic event and something changes in us

1:34:22 Speaker 1: where I don't know.

1:34:24 Speaker 2: I don't know, And that's just my one contact. I mean,

1:34:28 Speaker 2: I've had contact with other things that look like people.

1:34:32 Speaker 2: You'd never know the difference. I've had weird things happen

1:34:35 Speaker 2: with what I thought were people, so uh and in

1:34:39 Speaker 2: retrospect pretty sure they weren't, but interesting. So but yeah,

1:34:44 Speaker 2: for just that, for the gray ones, and again that's

1:34:50 Speaker 2: just my yeah theory. It doesn't mean that's fact. I mean,

1:34:55 Speaker 2: it could be just some wild thing that my brain

1:34:59 Speaker 2: put together to make sense of everything. I don't know.

1:35:01 Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it's so far fetched to think,

1:35:03 Speaker 1: because I mean, if you look at if you look

1:35:08 Speaker 1: at the human and if you do you know, if

1:35:13 Speaker 1: you do believe in evolution as as a as a

1:35:19 Speaker 1: tool that that is used genetically to adapt to whatever

1:35:27 Speaker 1: in the future. I mean, we are the apex predator

1:35:30 Speaker 1: of the world. There is nothing that threatens us environmentally,

1:35:35 Speaker 1: so our next change wouldn't be like, you know, some

1:35:39 Speaker 1: some some sort of predatorial thing. It would probably be

1:35:44 Speaker 1: in our our consciousness or brain that would be. You know,

1:35:48 Speaker 1: our heads get bigger. We we nothing is attacking us.

1:35:53 Speaker 1: Our body gets a little bit more slender. It's it

1:35:55 Speaker 1: doesn't have to fend off attacks or or defend itself.

1:36:00 Speaker 1: I mean, we see the d genderification kind of happening

1:36:03 Speaker 1: right now.

1:36:05 Speaker 2: So if they live underground, they don't need as much light.

1:36:08 Speaker 2: Their eyes would be bigger, you know, in their eyes, right,

1:36:11 Speaker 2: I don't know, so it is.

1:36:13 Speaker 1: And my doctor Michael Masters, I don't know if you've

1:36:17 Speaker 1: heard of him, but I mean he he is one

1:36:20 Speaker 1: of the main purpose perpetuators or one of the main

1:36:25 Speaker 1: scholars that that really does think that this is these

1:36:30 Speaker 1: are future humans. This is all future humans. I don't

1:36:36 Speaker 1: necessarily subscribe to that, but it is what it is.

1:36:40 Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't think they all are, but I

1:36:42 Speaker 2: think there is some. I'm totally obsessed with time travel,

1:36:46 Speaker 2: by the way, And I had a dream that I

1:36:49 Speaker 2: met my great, great, great, great great like ten to

1:36:52 Speaker 2: the ends power grandson in a weird place. It was

1:36:56 Speaker 2: in the nineties, I think when I had early two thousand.

1:37:00 Speaker 2: When I had this dream, I wrote it down. I

1:37:02 Speaker 2: wrote the date down, but I woke up I woke

1:37:05 Speaker 2: up in this hospital and it was such a beautiful, bright, comfortable.

1:37:10 Speaker 2: The bed was comfortable, it like hugged you and you

1:37:13 Speaker 2: laid on it. The windows were huge, and the beautiful

1:37:16 Speaker 2: light was coming in and the outside was gorgeous. And

1:37:19 Speaker 2: I got up and I went to the bathroom and

1:37:21 Speaker 2: used the bathroom facilities and it was so high tech

1:37:24 Speaker 2: and like futuristic and very really neat. And I got

1:37:29 Speaker 2: back on the bed and then this young man walked

1:37:31 Speaker 2: in and he said, Hi, you're awake, and I said yeah,

1:37:34 Speaker 2: and he goes, how are you? And I'm telling you,

1:37:36 Speaker 2: I'm my fine. Who is this person? You know? And

1:37:41 Speaker 2: we have a conversation and he basically tells me that

1:37:45 Speaker 2: he's my grandson, only many times removed, you know, I

1:37:53 Speaker 2: mean into the future. And I said, really, why am

1:37:56 Speaker 2: I here? And he said I wanted to meet you

1:38:00 Speaker 2: and check on you. And I asked him about the

1:38:03 Speaker 2: toilet in the bed and he told me that the toilet,

1:38:06 Speaker 2: I know, I was fascinated with it. And he told

1:38:08 Speaker 2: me the toilet could tell him all about me, my health,

1:38:13 Speaker 2: could tell him what I needed more of in my diet,

1:38:15 Speaker 2: what I needed less of, what kind of things I

1:38:18 Speaker 2: had going on with my body. This toilet could tell

1:38:22 Speaker 2: him all kinds of things about my body when I

1:38:25 Speaker 2: used the toilet, and the bed was the same way.

1:38:27 Speaker 2: The bed could tell him different things about my body

1:38:31 Speaker 2: and my health. And I'm like, that's cool as shit,

1:38:33 Speaker 2: you know, And then I woke up that it was

1:38:38 Speaker 2: very very brief. See, I have weird These are the

1:38:42 Speaker 2: These are the lucid dreams that I have. Most of

1:38:44 Speaker 2: the time, I dream like everybody else, you know, an

1:38:47 Speaker 2: hour after I'm up, I don't even remember I dream.

1:38:49 Speaker 2: But every now and then, right the end of my

1:38:52 Speaker 2: sleep cycle, I have these incredible three D color visual

1:38:59 Speaker 2: I'm in them, dreams, uh that stick with me forever.

1:39:03 Speaker 2: And the longer I'm awake, the more detail I remember.

1:39:06 Speaker 2: And that was one of them, and.

1:39:07 Speaker 1: They become almost more like rather than dreams, they become memories.

1:39:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's so yeah there. I call them lucid dreams,

1:39:16 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Because I can't prove their memories.

1:39:20 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I mean some of you are.

1:39:24 Speaker 2: You're still I still write it, yeah, I still write

1:39:27 Speaker 2: it down. I write them down in case my brain

1:39:30 Speaker 2: ever goes.

1:39:31 Speaker 1: To shit, right, you do you do have a family

1:39:35 Speaker 1: history with dementia, if I'm not mistaken.

1:39:38 Speaker 2: My dad had it and my sister has it, but

1:39:41 Speaker 2: she hers is because she's had like fifteen strokes. Ah,

1:39:45 Speaker 2: my dad's was. I don't know how and I do.

1:39:49 Speaker 2: I am followed by a neurologist because I have ocular

1:39:52 Speaker 2: migraines and I also have a condition called fibro muscular

1:39:56 Speaker 2: dysplasia in my arterial system that can like grow in

1:40:01 Speaker 2: my brain. It closes up your arteries. It actually closed

1:40:04 Speaker 2: up one of my kidneys, one of my renal arteries.

1:40:06 Speaker 2: They had to open it up with angioplusty. But it's

1:40:09 Speaker 2: it's genetic, uh, and you can't do anything about it

1:40:12 Speaker 2: except watch it. So I get MRAs and CTAs in

1:40:16 Speaker 2: my brain every five years, and I do have bright

1:40:21 Speaker 2: spots there, you know. But she tells me that that's

1:40:26 Speaker 2: normal for people my age.

1:40:28 Speaker 1: So right right right, I would say, you're I mean,

1:40:30 Speaker 1: and you look great for sixty sixty five?

1:40:34 Speaker 2: Uh, thank you, and yell, I'm older.

1:40:37 Speaker 1: You know, well, well you have you have energy in

1:40:40 Speaker 1: a in a demeanor of someone that is far younger.

1:40:45 Speaker 2: And it's because I'm so goofy I I act goofy

1:40:49 Speaker 2: when you're around me. Trust me?

1:40:51 Speaker 1: Well, shit, who cares? Right? Who cares?

1:40:55 Speaker 2: What if? What is life if you can't enjoy it

1:40:57 Speaker 2: and have a little fun even if you have.

1:41:00 Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. We had a conversation and

1:41:05 Speaker 1: I can't I can't get into the specifics of why

1:41:08 Speaker 1: the conversation came up. But we're talking about Pasca Goula

1:41:12 Speaker 1: mm hm. And you knew Charlie? You knew did you

1:41:21 Speaker 1: know Charlie and Calvi?

1:41:23 Speaker 2: I knew Calvin and Charlie. I actually knew Calvin better

1:41:26 Speaker 2: than Charlie. I met cal I met Charlie a couple

1:41:28 Speaker 2: of times at conferences. And there's an I call I

1:41:34 Speaker 2: think it's an iconic picture actually because it's got Betty

1:41:37 Speaker 2: Hill and Charlie Hickson and and it's me, Betty Hill

1:41:40 Speaker 2: and Charlie Hickson sitting on a picnic. We're at some

1:41:45 Speaker 2: kind of think tank in Aspen, Colorado in the nineties.

1:41:48 Speaker 2: I think it was like ninety four or something. That's

1:41:52 Speaker 2: me and Calvin and Bud. I think we were in

1:41:55 Speaker 2: Florida at the time. Calvin and I. He's like, my,

1:42:01 Speaker 2: we have you ever met a person that you don't

1:42:04 Speaker 2: hardly talk to him very much at all. They lived

1:42:06 Speaker 2: somewhere else, but every time you get together, you're like.

1:42:10 Speaker 1: Past.

1:42:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, Calvin. Me and Calvin were like that. And his

1:42:14 Speaker 2: wife also went at and they last time I saw

1:42:19 Speaker 2: Calvin was at a conference. I think it was in

1:42:23 Speaker 2: Eureka Springs, Arkansas, might have it was either Eureka Springs

1:42:27 Speaker 2: or Penscole, I can't remember with but and I got

1:42:32 Speaker 2: a picture of it because he passed away maybe a

1:42:34 Speaker 2: couple of years after that. So and and his wife

1:42:37 Speaker 2: gave me a pair of ear rings that I still have. Uh,

1:42:40 Speaker 2: but they were both Charlie was. He was very I

1:42:46 Speaker 2: thought he was well spoken and very calm, you know,

1:42:52 Speaker 2: and very kind. He was a very kind and patient

1:42:55 Speaker 2: man with me and non John's metal, you know. And

1:42:58 Speaker 2: I heard him tell his story before for and it

1:43:01 Speaker 2: was always compelling and the details never changed. And as

1:43:05 Speaker 2: far as Calvin was concerned, Calvin was such a mild

1:43:08 Speaker 2: mannered guy, very sweet natured, who would give you the

1:43:12 Speaker 2: shirt off his back. He would give you the shirt

1:43:15 Speaker 2: off his back if you needed him for anything. And

1:43:21 Speaker 2: every time he told the story, you could almost watch

1:43:24 Speaker 2: him and it almost felt like he was reliving it

1:43:27 Speaker 2: again every time he told it. You know, you could

1:43:30 Speaker 2: feel his the way he felt that night and all

1:43:33 Speaker 2: that shit happened, and he was terrified. He was terrified.

1:43:37 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you of all of the UFO stories

1:43:42 Speaker 2: of the back in the day, of all of them,

1:43:46 Speaker 2: to me, Pascagoula is always going to be one of

1:43:50 Speaker 2: the strongest, just because I knew those guys, and I

1:43:53 Speaker 2: knew that they were telling the truth. You know. I

1:43:58 Speaker 2: feel so fortunate to have been able to meet them both,

1:44:01 Speaker 2: to spend time with them, especially especially Calvin. He was

1:44:05 Speaker 2: kind of like a He's kind of like a big

1:44:08 Speaker 2: brother to me. And this, Yeah, you're just the nicest man.

1:44:13 Speaker 2: He's just so kind. And he never sought out publicity,

1:44:16 Speaker 2: and he just.

1:44:17 Speaker 1: He ran from it.

1:44:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, he just wanted people to to listen to his story.

1:44:22 Speaker 2: You know.

1:44:23 Speaker 1: But and and and then that's again, you know, this,

1:44:26 Speaker 1: this Pastor Googla case means a lot to me. I

1:44:31 Speaker 1: can't explain why yet, but I've always had a fascination

1:44:37 Speaker 1: with that case. It's just in your opinion, in your

1:44:45 Speaker 1: like I said, in what with what you know, with

1:44:48 Speaker 1: what you saw the past, pascor Gula, you in your opinion,

1:44:58 Speaker 1: did it happen and is it being covered up? Is

1:45:04 Speaker 1: there a larger cover up of these incidents?

1:45:08 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think there's a larger cover

1:45:10 Speaker 2: up of all of these big incidences, and there always

1:45:13 Speaker 2: has been. And second of all, did it happen? Uh? Yeah,

1:45:18 Speaker 2: I feel very strongly that something extraordinary happened to these

1:45:25 Speaker 2: two men, something that they didn't understand, something scared the

1:45:29 Speaker 2: absolute shit out of them and changed them for their

1:45:32 Speaker 2: whole lives. Something that profound happened to these men. To me,

1:45:37 Speaker 2: there is no doubt about it, Absolutely no doubt about it.

1:45:41 Speaker 1: And you know, because there are similarities and stories of course,

1:45:46 Speaker 1: right floating like the now their beings are more robotic

1:45:54 Speaker 1: in but then they you know, once once we get

1:45:57 Speaker 1: to talk about the lady, she appears more humanoid. And

1:46:02 Speaker 1: again you've had interactions with what you say, Are they

1:46:06 Speaker 1: look just like us?

1:46:07 Speaker 2: Yep?

1:46:08 Speaker 1: So it seems like they have almost like an advanced

1:46:12 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence fused with like some sort of three D

1:46:17 Speaker 1: printed I don't know body that they can use robotics.

1:46:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the possibilities are endless. I feel like

1:46:26 Speaker 2: if you can imagine it in your mind, it exists somewhere.

1:46:29 Speaker 2: That's the way things are, you know.

1:46:31 Speaker 1: Exactly, Yeah, absolutely, so you know their abduction you know again,

1:46:41 Speaker 1: I think that is the part that people will always

1:46:45 Speaker 1: have the most trouble with. And you know, it sucks

1:46:49 Speaker 1: because it's kind of the last an experience. There is

1:46:54 Speaker 1: kind of like the last person now in this day

1:46:57 Speaker 1: and age that can say, you know, I was touched,

1:47:01 Speaker 1: I was taken and the police will kind of laugh

1:47:05 Speaker 1: at off right.

1:47:07 Speaker 2: No, not not anyone else in the.

1:47:09 Speaker 1: World could could walk into a police station and say

1:47:12 Speaker 1: that that they would not take seriously. But when you

1:47:17 Speaker 1: bring in this non human intelligence aspect, I mean, they're

1:47:21 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, I can't go there.

1:47:24 Speaker 3: Sorry, that's going to change, and mark my words, that

1:47:28 Speaker 3: is going to change, right Do you think I'm one

1:47:31 Speaker 3: hundred sure of that now?

1:47:34 Speaker 1: Something that was told to me a while back. God,

1:47:37 Speaker 1: I can't even remember how long ago is or who

1:47:40 Speaker 1: even told me this, But you said it as well.

1:47:44 Speaker 1: It was like you were getting ready for something, like

1:47:49 Speaker 1: you were like, there's a job that you're going to

1:47:52 Speaker 1: have in the future that well, what so and I

1:48:00 Speaker 1: And I'm kind of combining this with something that I

1:48:03 Speaker 1: think is happening because when you ask why because the

1:48:07 Speaker 1: New York Times article, Yeah, okay, right, it was big.

1:48:11 Speaker 1: It made people think the videos came out. But they

1:48:16 Speaker 1: could have just you know, let that simmer out and

1:48:20 Speaker 1: fade away and you know, just have it be another

1:48:26 Speaker 1: drop in the bucket for UFO people. But no, in

1:48:31 Speaker 1: twenty twenty they confirmed that they did have the program

1:48:35 Speaker 1: and then this kind of controlled disclosure starts. Do you

1:48:41 Speaker 1: think that they are letting us in because there's something coming?

1:48:49 Speaker 1: Could that be.

1:48:51 Speaker 2: Some sort of theory you mean they be in the government.

1:48:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, so or not? That not the government, because I

1:48:58 Speaker 1: think ninety nine point nine percent of people in government,

1:49:02 Speaker 1: they don't they just go to work their pension. They

1:49:06 Speaker 1: most of the time they want to do the right thing.

1:49:08 Speaker 1: But there's this deep state, right if you want to

1:49:12 Speaker 1: call it that, whatever it is, that the secret keepers

1:49:15 Speaker 1: quote unquote seem like they're drip feeding us information.

1:49:20 Speaker 2: I go over to the gatekeepers. Yeah, you know, because

1:49:24 Speaker 2: they're losing control, so they got to do something so

1:49:27 Speaker 2: they don't look like complete idiots. That's called cover your ass. Yes,

1:49:33 Speaker 2: you know, because at the end of the day, whatever

1:49:37 Speaker 2: is going to happen is going to happen, and they

1:49:38 Speaker 2: ain't gonna stop it. I'm just that's my gut feeling,

1:49:42 Speaker 2: and I feel like, yeah, cya time.

1:49:45 Speaker 1: Kids, Do you think we're ready?

1:49:51 Speaker 2: You know what, if we aren't ready by now, then

1:49:53 Speaker 2: we don't deserve whatever there is to come from it.

1:49:57 Speaker 2: I'm just saying, Uh, it's a good point. I am.

1:50:01 Speaker 2: I can't my observe. I am an observer of people, Okay,

1:50:08 Speaker 2: so I understand that I may see more than most people,

1:50:13 Speaker 2: but there are millions of people like me that can see.

1:50:17 Speaker 2: But hey, I always said I've gotten this message quote

1:50:22 Speaker 2: unquote before that when the world is new, it'll be

1:50:27 Speaker 2: for everyone, but not everyone will choose it. You have

1:50:31 Speaker 2: free will, Okay, So when things start changing, if people

1:50:35 Speaker 2: don't want to believe or see, then that's fine. They'll

1:50:40 Speaker 2: stay right where they are. But there's more and we're

1:50:45 Speaker 2: about to find out. Wow.

1:50:49 Speaker 1: You know one of these one of these things that

1:50:55 Speaker 1: gets thrown around is what this date. It's been mentioned

1:51:00 Speaker 1: by guys like Elizondo and others. David Grush even referred

1:51:05 Speaker 1: to it. It's kind of been passing. But then you know,

1:51:08 Speaker 1: cia guys like John Ramirez. I'm actually having Chris Bledsoe

1:51:14 Speaker 1: on the show on when this comes out. When this

1:51:19 Speaker 1: comes out, it'll be the next episode after this. I'm

1:51:24 Speaker 1: trying to like look forward into the future right now,

1:51:26 Speaker 1: and I can't do it. But yes, so I'm having

1:51:29 Speaker 1: blood so on, and I mean, it just seems like

1:51:35 Speaker 1: there's there's something on its either on its way or

1:51:39 Speaker 1: they've been you know, given a deadline like.

1:51:43 Speaker 2: Here, they've all it's always been here.

1:51:46 Speaker 1: Right, Like, get your people together. You need to let

1:51:50 Speaker 1: them know, like where coming, whether you like it or not.

1:51:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, there is no government on this planet that's

1:51:57 Speaker 2: gonna stop what's about to happen. And I'm not saying

1:52:01 Speaker 2: I'm trying to be I'm not trying to be an

1:52:02 Speaker 2: alarmist or anything like that, because I don't. I don't think.

1:52:08 Speaker 2: I don't feel anything negative for it. It's just different.

1:52:12 Speaker 2: And you know, but some people can't even good. Change

1:52:16 Speaker 2: is too hard for some people, right, it's all you know,

1:52:20 Speaker 2: And nothing stays the same forever. We have to for

1:52:22 Speaker 2: we have to remember that nothing ever, state, nothing lasts forever.

1:52:29 Speaker 2: Everything changes, right, you either learn to roll with it

1:52:33 Speaker 2: or you don't. I mean, the survivors are the ones

1:52:36 Speaker 2: that will adapt and adjust, and that's you know, and

1:52:41 Speaker 2: that's the part of yourself you have to tap into

1:52:44 Speaker 2: and just roll with it.

1:52:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't. I literally can't say it better. So, uh, we.

1:52:51 Speaker 2: Are we are, we are we all this time.

1:52:58 Speaker 1: We are going to start doing this segment to kind

1:53:04 Speaker 1: of keep things a little bit fresh and and fun. Uh.

1:53:08 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about I could I could remain

1:53:12 Speaker 1: doing the podcast because I'm a very serious person when

1:53:15 Speaker 1: it comes to interviewing and I want to make sure

1:53:18 Speaker 1: I keep that and but I also want to mix

1:53:21 Speaker 1: it up and have a little bit of fun. So

1:53:23 Speaker 1: I thought that you could be the first who does

1:53:28 Speaker 1: it does the segment with me. So I'm going to

1:53:31 Speaker 1: ask you four trivia questions about modern uiphology, and if

1:53:38 Speaker 1: you get all four right, I will send you a

1:53:41 Speaker 1: total disclosure shirt. You have you have to wear it, right,

1:53:47 Speaker 1: Yeah you can't. Just at least wear and take a

1:53:50 Speaker 1: picture send it to me so I can go. But

1:53:54 Speaker 1: if you get all four right, you get the shirt.

1:53:56 Speaker 1: If you don't, I'll probably still send you a shirt.

1:53:59 Speaker 2: But it's yeah, because I mean, I told you there's

1:54:03 Speaker 2: so many new names in this field anymore, I don't

1:54:06 Speaker 2: know who most people are.

1:54:08 Speaker 1: Well, here's what I did is I kind of so

1:54:13 Speaker 1: three of the questions kind of are centric to your case.

1:54:18 Speaker 1: I guess right. Then there's one that's not okay, So okay,

1:54:24 Speaker 1: here we go. Next up, we're gonna be playing uf

1:54:27 Speaker 1: O rivia. All right, Deb, The game works is such.

1:54:39 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you four questions you have you have

1:54:44 Speaker 1: to have a final answer on each and no phone

1:54:47 Speaker 1: of friends, nothing like that. You have as much time

1:54:50 Speaker 1: as needed. But I am going to ask that you

1:54:53 Speaker 1: don't use your phone.

1:54:55 Speaker 2: So what kind of thing of Okay, I'm gonna look

1:54:58 Speaker 2: at the camera.

1:55:00 Speaker 1: Yes, question number one. Bud Hopkins is considered a pioneer

1:55:07 Speaker 1: in UFO abduction research. What is the title of his

1:55:11 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven book that first brought national attention to

1:55:14 Speaker 1: the phenomenon of alien abduction.

1:55:17 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so bad. Intruders?

1:55:22 Speaker 1: Yes, of course, yes, the answer is, oh now, yeah,

1:55:27 Speaker 1: imagine you got the wrong I was like, this is

1:55:29 Speaker 1: a layup, but yes, intruders. The incredible visitations at Coppley Woods.

1:55:37 Speaker 2: All right.

1:55:38 Speaker 1: Second question, Deb Cobble's abduction experience was detailed in Bud

1:55:45 Speaker 1: hopkins book Intruders. What pseudonym did Bud Hopkins use for

1:55:50 Speaker 1: you in the book Kathy Davis. Correct. Correct, very very,

1:55:56 Speaker 1: very very proud of you. All right, all right, question

1:56:00 Speaker 1: number three. Your experience is often compared to other famous

1:56:05 Speaker 1: abduction cases, which nineteen seventy three UFO abduction, also in

1:56:10 Speaker 1: the state of Indiana's neighboring region, involved two men who

1:56:15 Speaker 1: claimed to be paralyzed and examined by beings with wrinkled skin.

1:56:22 Speaker 2: Pasca gula.

1:56:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so right now you're three. Are you

1:56:32 Speaker 1: ready for question number four?

1:56:35 Speaker 2: Lay it on me. Okay, I'll probably miss this one.

1:56:40 Speaker 1: What is the name of the Brazilian incident in nineteen

1:56:44 Speaker 1: ninety six were multiple witnesses, including locals and military personnel,

1:56:51 Speaker 1: reported seeing strange creatures and a crash UFO hint. It

1:56:58 Speaker 1: was a major James Fox documentary recently.

1:57:03 Speaker 2: I can't say the word. I always mispronounced bargas or

1:57:09 Speaker 2: something like. It starts with a V V. I don't know,

1:57:14 Speaker 2: I can't pronounce.

1:57:15 Speaker 1: You know what, I'm gonna give it to you because

1:57:17 Speaker 1: it's Virginia. Okay, Virginia. But there's so many people that

1:57:24 Speaker 1: that have that that same trouble you. I'm actually I'm

1:57:28 Speaker 1: very happy you got that question. So I so we'll talk.

1:57:33 Speaker 2: Obviously, I thought that was an interesting Yeah, that was

1:57:35 Speaker 2: an interesting story, and I saw most of the video.

1:57:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, congratulations. I don't know what button to hit.

1:57:45 Speaker 1: I don't know which one it is, Okay, is it

1:57:53 Speaker 1: the game?

1:57:55 Speaker 2: I used to have an airhorn. I used to annoy

1:57:57 Speaker 2: people with, well, you you.

1:58:00 Speaker 1: Are the first contestant and you are the first winner

1:58:04 Speaker 1: of Total Disclosure of trivia. So you'll get a total

1:58:07 Speaker 1: Disclosure shirt. I'll pay for it. I'll have the tent

1:58:11 Speaker 1: over to you. We'll talk off here about that. Thank

1:58:14 Speaker 1: you so much for doing that. By the way, you're welcome.

1:58:16 Speaker 1: It's kind of goofy, but I had fun kind of

1:58:20 Speaker 1: to wrap up here. What's next for you? I mean,

1:58:25 Speaker 1: are there any new projects on the horizon, appearances, you know,

1:58:30 Speaker 1: collaborations of the works.

1:58:32 Speaker 2: Right now, I'm on the UFO investigating unknown and I

1:58:39 Speaker 2: have been asked to speak at the move On International

1:58:43 Speaker 2: move On Symposium in July Yeaving in Kentucky, So I'm

1:58:49 Speaker 2: going to be speaking there. My talk will be centered

1:58:53 Speaker 2: around my June thirtieth eighty three incident and the investigation

1:58:58 Speaker 2: that Bud did on that.

1:59:02 Speaker 1: So that's so funny because I am going to be

1:59:05 Speaker 1: Rod James asked me to help film that, oh that

1:59:09 Speaker 1: three day symposium, So so.

1:59:12 Speaker 2: We'll get to meet in person.

1:59:13 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And actually that's awesome because I would love

1:59:16 Speaker 1: to interview you as we talked about for something else,

1:59:21 Speaker 1: So I think that might be an opportunity if oh god,

1:59:27 Speaker 1: it just hit puberty.

1:59:34 Speaker 2: Oh lord, So I'm gonna I keep my I'm still

1:59:38 Speaker 2: an administrator of the zero Midwest support group Facebook page,

1:59:45 Speaker 2: and I still do my website, Deb's home dot com

1:59:50 Speaker 2: and uh, you know, I've got the books there. And

1:59:53 Speaker 2: then my buddy Greg and I we do Midwest Para

1:59:56 Speaker 2: Talk radio live stream on YouTube and then uploaded later

2:00:00 Speaker 2: to all the podcast platforms. And that that's it on

2:00:05 Speaker 2: Thursday nights at nine pm Eastern Standard time.

2:00:09 Speaker 1: Awesome.

2:00:09 Speaker 2: And then also I co host it's a Facebook blog

2:00:17 Speaker 2: show with Mary Bassett, Dana Stricker, and Devin R. J

2:00:23 Speaker 2: Derus called uh Voices of Contact. It's an interesting show

2:00:28 Speaker 2: where we we listened to hypno therapy hypnosis tapes of

2:00:34 Speaker 2: the individuals with their permission, and then we we talk

2:00:38 Speaker 2: about the things that they remembered and what it could mean.

2:00:41 Speaker 1: So all right, that's interesting.

2:00:43 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I stay busy.

2:00:46 Speaker 1: It sounds like it. And and you're, like you said,

2:00:48 Speaker 1: you're You're someone who I think experiencers can go to

2:00:52 Speaker 1: and kind of it talked to and not be subject

2:00:57 Speaker 1: to ridicule because.

2:00:58 Speaker 2: Oh no, Yeah, they can write to me through my website.

2:01:00 Speaker 2: I get letters all the time from people that write

2:01:03 Speaker 2: to me through the website and just want to share

2:01:06 Speaker 2: their story with me. And what, you know, what, what

2:01:10 Speaker 2: you share with me stays with me. I just want

2:01:13 Speaker 2: to be there and be available.

2:01:14 Speaker 1: For well, all the links, Yeah, I'll grab all the

2:01:19 Speaker 1: links from you and I will include them in the

2:01:21 Speaker 1: description below. So for anyone who wants to follow Dev's

2:01:24 Speaker 1: work and tune into one of the various shows, check

2:01:29 Speaker 1: out our website, maybe even report your own experience, all

2:01:34 Speaker 1: those links will be in the description below. Thank you

2:01:37 Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show today. You are

2:01:40 Speaker 1: absolutely amazing and I really look forward to having future

2:01:44 Speaker 1: conversations with you. Maybe not in a chipmunk voice for

2:01:48 Speaker 1: half of it, so that would always be great. Yeah,

2:01:52 Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this.

2:01:54 Speaker 2: And thanks for asking me. I appreciate it.

2:01:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we will catch you on the flip side.

2:02:00 Speaker 1: And for everyone who is watching listening, I want to

2:02:05 Speaker 1: say thank you. You can hang around after the credits roll,

2:02:09 Speaker 1: we'll say our party words. Guys. Make sure I like, share, subscribe,

2:02:13 Speaker 1: and if you're listening out one of those amazing podcast

2:02:15 Speaker 1: platforms you can review the show, follow and rate it.

2:02:19 Speaker 1: It really helps. It's all free, and if you want

2:02:21 Speaker 1: to help support monetarily, there's many ways you can do that,

2:02:25 Speaker 1: mainly become a member on YouTube. It really helps as

2:02:28 Speaker 1: well getting me to places and so I can keep

2:02:31 Speaker 1: continuing to make the content as best possible. With that

2:02:35 Speaker 1: being said, we'll see you on the other side and

2:03:18 Speaker 2: S