UFOs, Alien Abduction & Consciousness — Paul Hynek (Son of J. Allen Hynek)

0:00 Speaker 1: Welcome back everybody.

0:01 Speaker 2: I am here on the last day of Contact and

0:03 Speaker 2: Desert twenty twenty five event Horizon, and I've been waiting

0:07 Speaker 2: for this specific.

0:08 Speaker 1: Interview probably since the minute I arrived.

0:11 Speaker 2: Actually, Paul Heinik is here with me, son of Jay

0:15 Speaker 2: Allen Heinik, famed scientist for Project Blue Book.

0:20 Speaker 1: Your family name is engraved in UFO lure in history.

0:25 Speaker 2: Big shoes to fill, I know, but I really wanted

0:28 Speaker 2: to sit down with you and talk about Pascagoula. Cool

0:32 Speaker 2: and what you know about you know about Pascagoula, not

0:37 Speaker 2: in terms of just what happened with Calvin Right and

0:41 Speaker 2: Charles Right, but the larger event that took place that

0:44 Speaker 2: you know, there's many more witnesses than where.

0:47 Speaker 3: We were keep coming forward over time, yes.

0:49 Speaker 1: And a hundred people.

0:52 Speaker 3: So is it?

0:53 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, what did your dad know? What?

0:56 Speaker 2: What What was your dad's overall opinion about the case

1:00 Speaker 2: in past Goula and what was his view on Charles

1:03 Speaker 2: in Calvin He.

1:04 Speaker 3: Thought the case was very convincing.

1:06 Speaker 4: But one time he was asked by a reporter, Doctor Heinik,

1:10 Speaker 4: did the events reported.

1:11 Speaker 3: In past Goula actually happened? And he said, how the

1:14 Speaker 3: hell should I know? I wasn't there, but because that's

1:18 Speaker 3: what a scientist would say.

1:19 Speaker 4: But I believe the witnesses believe it happened, and that's

1:22 Speaker 4: as far as a scientist would go.

1:24 Speaker 3: He found the case very compelling.

1:26 Speaker 4: And one of the things that's interesting to me that

1:29 Speaker 4: I found out from Calvin was that I don't know

1:33 Speaker 4: if I have all the dates lined up, but I

1:35 Speaker 4: think it happened on a Friday and or on the weekend.

1:39 Speaker 4: On Monday morning, Calvin told me that he was called

1:43 Speaker 4: to the HR office of the shipyard, I think where

1:46 Speaker 4: he worked, and my father was there at seven thirty

1:50 Speaker 4: in the morning in the HR office with somebody else.

1:54 Speaker 3: And Calvin didn't know who my father was.

1:57 Speaker 4: He wasn't into upology, so he didn't know, but he

2:01 Speaker 4: he was impressive. There's two gentlemen that were there at

2:03 Speaker 4: seven thirty in the morning. I never knew that. I

2:05 Speaker 4: knew my father had gone down there, but I didn't

2:07 Speaker 4: know that case occurring on a friday or the weekend,

2:11 Speaker 4: and he's there seven thirty on Monday morning.

2:13 Speaker 1: Right now.

2:14 Speaker 4: He traveled extensively for a lot of cases, but I

2:17 Speaker 4: think he must have been somewhere on or near the

2:19 Speaker 4: Gulf coast for other business.

2:22 Speaker 3: So that was something that was fascinating to me.

2:24 Speaker 2: Wow, well, and there was right around that time now

2:27 Speaker 2: and then this is something I've been looking too into separately,

2:30 Speaker 2: but right around that time, there's a real big wave

2:34 Speaker 2: of major sightings in that time period.

2:38 Speaker 1: And you know, I think that you're probably probably right.

2:41 Speaker 2: He was other you know, down there for other reasons,

2:45 Speaker 2: but I think they were most likely UFO based, because

2:49 Speaker 2: that that summer or that stretch of like four months,

2:53 Speaker 2: I plotted at least eleven major really well eleven major cases.

2:57 Speaker 1: All around that area.

2:59 Speaker 2: So and that all the way up to all the

3:01 Speaker 2: way up to the to the northern of the United States.

3:04 Speaker 2: So Pasco Gula for me, is just one of those

3:07 Speaker 2: things that the more evidence I'm seeing, it really is

3:12 Speaker 2: becoming beyond a reasonable doubt that something took place in

3:16 Speaker 2: Mississippi that those couple of days.

3:20 Speaker 1: And then even even after. So I want to talk

3:25 Speaker 1: about your legacy.

3:27 Speaker 2: How are you filling the legacy of your father in

3:32 Speaker 2: this world.

3:32 Speaker 1: We're here at contact in the desert.

3:34 Speaker 2: Obviously, your name is very well known, so how do

3:38 Speaker 2: you how do you keep up with that, and how

3:39 Speaker 2: do you live up to such a name?

3:42 Speaker 3: Oh, and you talked about big shoes. Yeah, so I'm

3:44 Speaker 3: not filling any shoes.

3:47 Speaker 4: My I never thought that I would have anything interesting

3:50 Speaker 4: to say. I'm just the son of somebody. But when

3:54 Speaker 4: the TV show Project Blue Book came out and I

3:56 Speaker 4: was a consultant on that, Oh did you my brother,

3:59 Speaker 4: they asked me to do publicity.

4:01 Speaker 3: So I started speaking in public and that sort of

4:06 Speaker 3: broke the damn.

4:07 Speaker 4: And then people ask me what is I like to

4:09 Speaker 4: grow up with the father and things like that, And

4:11 Speaker 4: then I started over time developing my own voice and

4:14 Speaker 4: my own sort of particular interests associated with the phenomena.

4:18 Speaker 4: And now I don't know how you cannot be interested

4:21 Speaker 4: in this. You may not think there's much to it,

4:26 Speaker 4: but once you look at it, there's just so much.

4:28 Speaker 3: Evidence that suggests that something's happening.

4:30 Speaker 4: But a lot of people will not lean into it

4:34 Speaker 4: because they'll say, well, I know there's evidence, and there's

4:38 Speaker 4: royal as well, and there's this and that, but.

4:39 Speaker 3: I don't know where they come from.

4:42 Speaker 4: And that's because there are two kinds of people in

4:44 Speaker 4: the world. Those who are okay with questions, they can't

4:47 Speaker 4: answer and those who are not okay with their answers

4:50 Speaker 4: being questioned.

4:52 Speaker 3: And I've been able and I had a debate with

4:54 Speaker 3: Michael Shermer, the founder of Skeptical magazine right now, a friend,

4:58 Speaker 3: and others. I've been able to win people over.

5:01 Speaker 4: And I've seen so many conversations where people say, what

5:04 Speaker 4: about this evidence and this evidence, and it just doesn't

5:06 Speaker 4: It falls on deaf ears. But once you can start

5:10 Speaker 4: to tease a part the weight of the evidence not

5:15 Speaker 4: needing an explanation to stand on its own, that helps

5:18 Speaker 4: a lot. So that's something I look at, and you know,

5:23 Speaker 4: my interests. My father was interested in other dimensions, perhaps

5:26 Speaker 4: as an origin as an origin, right, it could be

5:30 Speaker 4: a Chinese menu, extra trust, interdimensional, extra temporal shout out

5:35 Speaker 4: to Mike Masters, Yeah, oh that's great, Yeah, and other things,

5:38 Speaker 4: but interdimensional are really resonated with me.

5:40 Speaker 3: So that's the sort of avenue that I focus on.

5:43 Speaker 1: So do you think so? And then that's become more

5:45 Speaker 1: popular in recent.

5:47 Speaker 2: Years, interdimensional hypothesis, And I think things like, you know,

5:51 Speaker 2: I know I've done DMT, I've done ayahuasca. And when

5:56 Speaker 2: you look at something like that, it is very interesting

6:00 Speaker 2: because you know, I went to a different place. I know,

6:03 Speaker 2: it was different than this, and I met someone there.

6:07 Speaker 3: Right now, I.

6:07 Speaker 2: Can't explain where I went, who I saw, but it

6:11 Speaker 2: if more people had that experience, they could come back

6:14 Speaker 2: and be like, oh, there's definitely something else, right like,

6:18 Speaker 2: because when I came back, it was like a shot

6:21 Speaker 2: out of my body and then popped back into it

6:24 Speaker 2: and you know, I'd.

6:25 Speaker 1: Met this being. And I mean, do you think that like.

6:28 Speaker 2: DMT has a place for more of a recreational or

6:31 Speaker 2: even a medical use for people that are struggling with

6:35 Speaker 2: you know, certain PTSD or maybe even abduction, you know, induction.

6:41 Speaker 1: Syndrome after they come back and they're having.

6:42 Speaker 2: A hard time, you know, people, people are very traumatized

6:47 Speaker 2: by that kind of stuff.

6:47 Speaker 3: Yeah.

6:48 Speaker 4: Well, I'm hesitant to speak authoritatively on the therapeutic benefits

6:54 Speaker 4: of a powerful drug like DMT, but in my personal

6:59 Speaker 4: experience and that of facilitating for others, I've seen a

7:02 Speaker 4: lot of wonderful things.

7:03 Speaker 3: I think.

7:04 Speaker 4: You know, psychedelics were outlawed by the Nixon administration, not

7:08 Speaker 4: out of concern for the welfare of our children, but

7:11 Speaker 4: to demonize hippies and brown people. And now after cannabis

7:16 Speaker 4: we're seeing a resurgence of clinical prestige for psychedelics, and

7:22 Speaker 4: there are a lot of studies showing obviously ketamine with

7:25 Speaker 4: the clinics and although I don't know if ketamine is

7:29 Speaker 4: technically a psychedelic, but like psilocybin and MDMA, people see

7:34 Speaker 4: lasting effects for a depression and anxiety, et cetera.

7:37 Speaker 3: And I have seen those as well.

7:40 Speaker 4: And I want to get back to something you said

7:42 Speaker 4: about it feels real, and you see that that's a

7:46 Speaker 4: really constant report from DMT users, including myself, that it

7:52 Speaker 4: feels hyper real. There's a permanence of state. I may

7:57 Speaker 4: or may not have done a lot of drugs in

7:59 Speaker 4: my younger days and when I had super long hair,

8:05 Speaker 4: but I there was no intention Yeah, thank you, and

8:09 Speaker 4: there's no intentionality.

8:10 Speaker 3: It was just messing around. But for DMT it's a

8:16 Speaker 3: completely different story.

8:17 Speaker 4: And I started doing it because I thought this might

8:22 Speaker 4: be the dimension that my father and Jacques Role and

8:25 Speaker 4: others have been talking about.

8:27 Speaker 3: So that's why I started doing it.

8:29 Speaker 4: And so I have a research interest to help experiences

8:32 Speaker 4: of DMT and other things like ghosts, aliens, what have you.

8:38 Speaker 4: Should they wish to demonstrate the objective reality of their encounters.

8:42 Speaker 3: Some don't care, Some.

8:43 Speaker 4: Don't care what everybody else has to say, but some do.

8:47 Speaker 4: And I don't care about disclosure. Screw the US government.

8:52 Speaker 4: They're bad faith, corrupt, central actor and psychedelic s ccryptocurrency

8:55 Speaker 4: and UFOs.

8:58 Speaker 3: I believe that.

8:59 Speaker 4: If experiencer there's enough, experiencers can understand the language of science.

9:04 Speaker 4: My father was an astronomer more than just a UFO guy.

9:08 Speaker 4: That was a side hustle, right right, So I grew

9:11 Speaker 4: up comfortable scientists.

9:12 Speaker 3: I know how to speak their language.

9:13 Speaker 4: And what I want to do is enable experiencers to

9:19 Speaker 4: show evidence that science understands for their encounters. And if

9:23 Speaker 4: we can have more fruitful discussions between experiencers and scientists,

9:27 Speaker 4: we can push things forward, and then the US government

9:30 Speaker 4: can hop on the caboose that they.

9:31 Speaker 3: Want to come along for the run.

9:32 Speaker 2: So, and that's what I've been saying a lot of

9:34 Speaker 2: it a lot lately in my podcast and talks is

9:37 Speaker 2: citizen journalism, citizen science, citizen scientists.

9:40 Speaker 3: There you go, and just citizens.

9:42 Speaker 2: They're going to be the ones to mount the pressure, right,

9:44 Speaker 2: you know. And then whether or not the US government

9:47 Speaker 2: wants to hop on the train is there. You know,

9:49 Speaker 2: I think it would be a good option for them

9:51 Speaker 2: right optically.

9:51 Speaker 3: And there's a parallel here.

9:53 Speaker 4: It's bitcoin, and I want to get too far off

9:56 Speaker 4: the topic, but the US government, as other governments, have

10:00 Speaker 4: and we also have to remember that the US government

10:01 Speaker 4: is not one monolithic block working logically in cohesion. They're

10:06 Speaker 4: warring fiefdoms and territorial disputes. But by and large, the

10:10 Speaker 4: US government, like many other governments, has been antagonistic to

10:13 Speaker 4: bitcoin because they rightly view it as a threat to

10:16 Speaker 4: their corrupt financial monopoly.

10:19 Speaker 3: But they can't stop it.

10:21 Speaker 4: And so now the calculus is, how do we either

10:24 Speaker 4: slow it or exploit it, or tax it, et cetera.

10:28 Speaker 3: And that's I think the position we're in with UFOs.

10:32 Speaker 4: I mean, we have a lot of people lobbying effectively

10:37 Speaker 4: and working behind the scenes to get this information out.

10:40 Speaker 4: Danny she and Steve Bassett, Ron James doing so much

10:43 Speaker 4: good work in Washington and elsewhere to get this information out.

10:46 Speaker 4: So I leave that in their capable hands, and I'm

10:49 Speaker 4: going to do the end around. It's like the Andrew

10:52 Speaker 4: Gallimore land of trying to go to source and see

10:54 Speaker 4: if I can do that, then we get them in

10:56 Speaker 4: those bastards in a pincer movement.

10:58 Speaker 2: I love I love the the target of targeting of it,

11:03 Speaker 2: the way you just pinted a good picture in my

11:05 Speaker 2: in my head. I know we don't have too much longer,

11:09 Speaker 2: but if you had a gun to your head, and wow, okay,

11:14 Speaker 2: we're getting serious, getting dark, getting dark, gun to your head.

11:19 Speaker 2: One case you had to choose to bring in front

11:22 Speaker 2: of court to prove beyond a reasonable now that something

11:24 Speaker 2: weird is going on.

11:25 Speaker 1: What's the case you bring out?

11:28 Speaker 4: Pastool is a great one, right, because there are a

11:32 Speaker 4: lot of elements for that. And we talked about how

11:35 Speaker 4: over the years more and more witnesses come forward.

11:37 Speaker 3: That's not typical. You have added layers of corroboration.

11:42 Speaker 4: And as you know, I know, I knew Calvin Parker, yes,

11:48 Speaker 4: from when I was a kid. I took a phone

11:51 Speaker 4: call when he called, and he's just solid, salt of

11:55 Speaker 4: the earth guy who didn't want that stuff to happen.

11:59 Speaker 4: And I know, I'm sure you know that when they

12:03 Speaker 4: were in the police station being integrogated actually, and there's

12:08 Speaker 4: a tape recorder and the police left, and ostensibly Calvin

12:14 Speaker 4: and Charlie didn't know that the tape recorder was going wrong.

12:18 Speaker 4: Now we don't know for sure that they didn't know,

12:21 Speaker 4: but it certainly seems consistent because these are not actors,

12:25 Speaker 4: These are not media savvy folks at the time, and

12:29 Speaker 4: it just seemed to ring true given how they would

12:34 Speaker 4: feel after an incident of this magnitude. And that's something

12:37 Speaker 4: my father follow in very compelling, and so yeah, I'll

12:41 Speaker 4: ride or Die with Pastor Hula baby wow.

12:44 Speaker 2: And you know, because the audio tape, because I have

12:46 Speaker 2: I have a lot of the evidence which I'm going

12:48 Speaker 2: to be compiling, and when I listen to that tape,

12:51 Speaker 2: it gives me clear it's like the same one as

12:55 Speaker 2: the Randallsham audio tape. Yeah, you're when you're listening to it,

12:59 Speaker 2: you can feel that year. You can feel it in there.

13:02 Speaker 2: There's something so raw about it.

13:04 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, so past google Yeah, and you know, shout

13:08 Speaker 4: out to Philip Mantle because he's kind of like the

13:11 Speaker 4: archives or curator of this ongoing, living, breathing case, right, and.

13:16 Speaker 2: He's done in such a great job and just getting

13:18 Speaker 2: you know, people together and people.

13:22 Speaker 1: Talking about the case.

13:23 Speaker 2: And that's what's gotten the more and more people to

13:27 Speaker 2: come out because they're you know, the way he's finding

13:29 Speaker 2: these people are incredible. You know, it's in a comment

13:33 Speaker 2: they mentioned something like, oh my mom might have been there,

13:35 Speaker 2: that's weird, and then he.

13:36 Speaker 4: Follows up, Oh, I mean that's dog and detective work.

13:41 Speaker 1: And the guy is just like I was. Gonna says

13:44 Speaker 1: that he's a hound when it comes to pass.

13:45 Speaker 2: Gula in these certain cases. And he's a very skeptical person.

13:49 Speaker 2: People don't realize like he doesn't just you know, believe,

13:52 Speaker 2: because he wants to believe. He's considered this beyond a

13:57 Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. Yeah, And I think it's a perfect title, right,

14:00 Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable I think something extraordinary happened in past Gula.

14:05 Speaker 2: Uh And I think the I think the the Navy

14:08 Speaker 2: knows it. The navy was there.

14:10 Speaker 1: It was the Navy of the Air Force that went

14:12 Speaker 1: in after they were they were on the ships and

14:15 Speaker 1: they saw blue light under the water.

14:17 Speaker 2: So there's documentation, like actual military documents that seemed to

14:22 Speaker 2: have gone missing about you know, seeing a.

14:25 Speaker 1: Blue light underwater, and you know blue light.

14:28 Speaker 2: Is it seems to play a central theme in a

14:32 Speaker 2: lot of cases, this blue light that either and comes

14:35 Speaker 2: before or is the craft that they see and then

14:39 Speaker 2: they're either abducted or they wake up in their bed

14:42 Speaker 2: and later on they get progressed and find.

14:44 Speaker 1: Out that they were abducted.

14:46 Speaker 4: So this blue Light show, are you saying that we

14:49 Speaker 4: should market for potential abductees blue blocker glasses.

14:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, have a good idea. Yeah, yeah, Well I don't

14:56 Speaker 1: know if that would keep the craft away. I think

14:58 Speaker 1: they emanate that blue light.

14:59 Speaker 2: But I really you know, like I said, I'm convinced

15:03 Speaker 2: that Passable happened, whether it happened exactly the way that

15:07 Speaker 2: we think it happened. You know, there might be variation

15:10 Speaker 2: in detailed memories flawed, but when you have that many people,

15:14 Speaker 2: we have over forty witnesses to the event, to the

15:16 Speaker 2: initial event, two of the witnesses saw what they think

15:21 Speaker 2: was Calvin and Charles get abducted, right, and then they

15:25 Speaker 2: were abducted themselves, So very very odd, very odd case.

15:29 Speaker 2: So I'm glad you that's the one you bring up

15:31 Speaker 2: if you had a gun to your head. But I

15:35 Speaker 2: don't want to waste too much more time. I want

15:39 Speaker 2: to say thank you for doing this and thank you

15:41 Speaker 2: for being here. I would love to have you on

15:44 Speaker 2: the podcast long form. Maybe if you find yourself in Boston,

15:47 Speaker 2: or I can fly you in and bring you into

15:49 Speaker 2: the studio.

15:49 Speaker 1: We could sit down and do like a full length.

15:51 Speaker 3: You know, I just checked my calendar and I'm free

15:54 Speaker 3: that day.

15:54 Speaker 1: Okay, well you heard it here, guys.

15:56 Speaker 2: Thank you for everyone who came to contact the Desert,

16:00 Speaker 2: and thank you for everyone who will be watching these

16:02 Speaker 2: In the future, We'll be putting them out as episodes,

16:05 Speaker 2: but then also recutting some of the footage for documentaries

16:08 Speaker 2: that I'm working on. So Paul, I just want to

16:10 Speaker 2: say thank you again, and can I wish you the

16:14 Speaker 2: best on your your work, your research and that pincer movement,

16:18 Speaker 2: and all right, let's go.

16:20 Speaker 1: Thank you.

16:31 Speaker 2: M M